D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[ECMO3]

i don't know where you're getting your calculations from but to say that at level 7 there is a deficit of 3 dpr is just wrong. yes you're doing more damage due to the adv, but only for the first round. the difference is literally .5 average, not 4. after that, they're still neck and neck with shillelaghs in the lead by .

Shilleleagh does 3 more damage at level 7 than a Rapier without Vex.

Rapier attack action 19 Intelligence, 16 Strength:
Attack 1d8+3, Truestrike 1d8+1d6+4, Total damage 4.5+3+4.5+3.5+4=19.5

Shillelagh attack action 19 Intelligence:
attack 1d10+4 Truestrike 1d10+1d6+4, Total damage 5.5+4+5.5+3.5+4=22.5

22.5 is 3 more than 19.5 and that is without considering Vex and without using a bonus action for that 19.5

Vex is not a flat bonus, statistically, its damage increase depends on the number of attacks you make against a single foe and the base chance to hit that foe and it carries over from round to round, so it is not only the first round, hitting with your last attack on the first round gives you a better chance to hit on the second round.

If you assume a base 60% chance to hit with the Rapier and vex your mean damage is as follows assuming you attack the same target. This includes critical hits:

1st round: 14.3
2nd round: 16.4
3rd round: 16.5

Three round total: 47.2

The mean will keep increasing very slowly after that every round as long as you attack the same target. When you switch to a new target it drops to 14.3 and starts over.

With a Shilleleagh using Topple against a foe with a +3 save (DC15):

Round 1: 15.3
Round 2: 15.3
Round 3: 15.3

Three round total 45.9

as for tactical shift, i dont see why thats a factor unless the distance is more than 40 feet. since it only activates when using second wind, id rather save it if im in a rough spot and need a quick retreat, since they are a limited resource like spell slots

If you are a melee character it matters a lot and they use it all the time in the 2024 games I have played. You use it to close in melee, either after the enemy near you moves/dies or on the first turn if you start more than 35 feet away.

With 1 use every short rest and 3 to start the day it is generally one use per battle or more, on days with few fights it is a lot more than one use per battle. You say it is a limited resource, but with 2 short rests that is 5 bonus actions per day to use it at 7th level, 6 at 11th level where your Shilleleagh damage really starts to shine. If you actually use it that is taking away from your other bonus actions, including Shilleleagh and PAM when you get it. If you don't use it then it really isn't limited is it?

Also for most PCs it would be 35 feet away, not 40 to close into melee range with a Shilleleagh.

mind you, this is all without using wrathful smite, but as an eldritch knight before level 13, id prefer to save my limited spell slots for defense like shield or absorb elements or the occasional shadow blade, so i wouldnt get shadow touched, even if it was a significant boost to dpr. even then, the whole original post was for a level 20 character

The entire build I commented about was a Wrathful Smite build, but even you don't do this you still need to boost Intelligence early if you want to get max use out of Shilleleagh, which means not taking PAM until late. Truestrike is available at level 3 and at level 7 Truestrike is your most powerful attack.

If you are allowed 2014 spells then Shadowblade is available at level 7, but it is very limited use, it is concentration, it doesn't work with Truestrike because of the material component and it uses Dexterity or Strength, not Intelligence. At level 7 compared to a Rapier with Triestrike/Attack it is 4.5 points more DPR for 1 fight at the cost of your highest level slot. At level 11 it uses your highest level slot and is the same damage as a Rapier with Truestrike-Attack would be.

From a Concentration point of view your damage is better if you get Hex or Hunter's Mark through Fey Touched, than it is with Shadow Blade. That uses a lower level slot it lasts longer and it allows you to continue to make one attack with Intelligence.

Saving slots for shield and defenses is fine, but at level 10+ you are really missing out on the power of the class with Eldritch Strike to make someone save at disadvantage on turn. If you are running a high Intelligence Eldritch Strike is awesome and Wrathful Smite is one of the best spells to use with it. So are Dissonant Whispers and Command. Even if you are not branching out with feat spells, on the Wizard list there are 1st level standouts that work great combineing Action Surge and Eldritch Strike. Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Cause Fear are two of them. With extra attack you can even upcast these and get multiple enemies saving with disadvantage.

 

[barouqeworks]

Also for most PCs it would be 35 feet away, not 40 to close into melee range with a Shilleleagh.

i say 40 feet because if an enemy is 35 feet away, you'd only have to move 30 feet to attack them. 35 feet is within 5 feet of 30 feet. 40 feet means you have to move at least 35 feet to be in melee

 

[FrogReaver]

i say 40 feet because if an enemy is 35 feet away, you'd only have to move 30 feet to attack them. 35 feet is within 5 feet of 30 feet. 40 feet means you have to move at least 35 feet to be in melee

That's a really weird way to count. Normally being within 30 ft means you would need to move 30ft to end up adjacent to the enemy.

 

[FrogReaver]

Shilleleagh does 3 more damage at level 7 than a Rapier without Vex.

Rapier attack action 19 Intelligence, 16 Strength:
Attack 1d8+3, Truestrike 1d8+1d6+4, Total damage 4.5+3+4.5+3.5+4=19.5

Shillelagh attack action 19 Intelligence:
attack 1d10+4 Truestrike 1d10+1d6+4, Total damage 5.5+4+5.5+3.5+4=22.5

22.5 is 3 more than 19.5 and that is without considering Vex and without using a bonus action for that 19.5

Vex is not a flat bonus, statistically, its damage increase depends on the number of attacks you make against a single foe and the base chance to hit that foe and it carries over from round to round, so it is not only the first round, hitting with your last attack on the first round gives you a better chance to hit on the second round.

If you assume a base 60% chance to hit with the Rapier and vex your mean damage is as follows assuming you attack the same target. This includes critical hits:

1st round: 14.3
2nd round: 16.4
3rd round: 16.5

Three round total: 47.2

The mean will keep increasing very slowly after that every round as long as you attack the same target. When you switch to a new target it drops to 14.3 and starts over.

With a Shilleleagh using Topple against a foe with a +3 save (DC15):

Round 1: 15.3
Round 2: 15.3
Round 3: 15.3

Three round total 45.9





If you are a melee character it matters a lot and they use it all the time in the 2024 games I have played. You use it to close in melee, either after the enemy near you moves/dies or on the first turn if you start more than 35 feet away.

With 1 use every short rest and 3 to start the day it is generally one use per battle or more, on days with few fights it is a lot more than one use per battle. You say it is a limited resource, but with 2 short rests that is 5 bonus actions per day to use it at 7th level, 6 at 11th level where your Shilleleagh damage really starts to shine. If you actually use it that is taking away from your other bonus actions, including Shilleleagh and PAM when you get it. If you don't use it then it really isn't limited is it?

Also for most PCs it would be 35 feet away, not 40 to close into melee range with a Shilleleagh.



The entire build I commented about was a Wrathful Smite build, but even you don't do this you still need to boost Intelligence early if you want to get max use out of Shilleleagh, which means not taking PAM until late. Truestrike is available at level 3 and at level 7 Truestrike is your most powerful attack.

If you are allowed 2014 spells then Shadowblade is available at level 7, but it is very limited use, it is concentration, it doesn't work with Truestrike because of the material component and it uses Dexterity or Strength, not Intelligence. At level 7 compared to a Rapier with Triestrike/Attack it is 4.5 points more DPR for 1 fight at the cost of your highest level slot. At level 11 it uses your highest level slot and is the same damage as a Rapier with Truestrike-Attack would be.

From a Concentration point of view your damage is better if you get Hex or Hunter's Mark through Fey Touched, than it is with Shadow Blade. That uses a lower level slot it lasts longer and it allows you to continue to make one attack with Intelligence.

Saving slots for shield and defenses is fine, but at level 10+ you are really missing out on the power of the class with Eldritch Strike to make someone save at disadvantage on turn. If you are running a high Intelligence Eldritch Strike is awesome and Wrathful Smite is one of the best spells to use with it. So are Dissonant Whispers and Command. Even if you are not branching out with feat spells, on the Wizard list there are 1st level standouts that work great combineing Action Surge and Eldritch Strike. Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Cause Fear are two of them. With extra attack you can even upcast these and get multiple enemies saving with disadvantage.

I'd note there is one incorrect assumption, that 60% chance to hit applies to the rapier rogue. One attack will be 5% lower chance to hit. But otherwise, I agree with your basic sentiment - for most of the game shileleagh isn't adding alot of damage to an EK over one that just uses attack+truestrike.

I also think treating vex as if your never changing targets in a combat is a mistake, albeit the mathematic difference is fairly minor as long as your targeting the same enemy most of the time, say 2 rounds.

 

[barouqeworks]

That's a really weird way to count. Normally being within 30 ft means you would need to move 30ft to end up adjacent to the enemy.

when playing in totm, sometimes you have to gauge distances lol. everything within 5 feet is melee

 

[ECMO3]

I'd note there is one incorrect assumption, that 60% chance to hit applies to the rapier rogue. One attack will be 5% lower chance to hit. But otherwise, I agree with your basic sentiment - for most of the game shileleagh isn't adding alot of damage to an EK over one that just uses attack+truestrike.

I also think treating vex as if your never changing targets in a combat is a mistake, albeit the mathematic difference is fairly minor as long as your targeting the same enemy most of the time, say 2 rounds.

I agree on all that, the main point I was making is that below level 11 there will be minimal if any increase in damage through Shilleleagh. While it may come out a couple points ahead on paper the necessary use of your bonus action to start combat will eliminate that small advantage in play by eliminating use of Tactical Shift the first round and because Vex is mathematically stronger than topple in terms of DPR (because there is no save and it can go one round to the next, even if it doesn't always).

TBH that is theory crafting max damage. In play I actually don't build or plan for that, the thing about EK is it is so versatile. Use whatever magic weapon you find - longsword, Rapier, Greatsword etc and then build around that "best weapon currently available" and change your fighting style as you find newer or better weapons. Tactical Master and Eldritch Strike also make for a great platform for using Wrathful Smite (and/or dissonant whispers) regardless of what weapon you are using and Truestrike makes it so you don't really have to prioritize Strength. The only levels you are really behind are 5-6. Other levels you are losing small amounts of damage, but not a lot of damage while pushing Intelligence through the casting feats (Warcaster, Shadow Touched, Fey Touched).

 

[Zardnaar]

I agree on all that, the main point I was making is that below level 11 there will be minimal if any increase in damage through Shilleleagh. While it may come out a couple points ahead on paper the necessary use of your bonus action to start combat will eliminate that small advantage in play by eliminating use of Tactical Shift the first round and because Vex is mathematically stronger than topple in terms of DPR (because there is no save and it can go one round to the next, even if it doesn't always).

TBH that is theory crafting max damage. In play I actually don't build or plan for that, the thing about EK is it is so versatile. Use whatever magic weapon you find - longsword, Rapier, Greatsword etc and then build around that "best weapon currently available" and change your fighting style as you find newer or better weapons. Tactical Master and Eldritch Strike also make for a great platform for using Wrathful Smite (and/or dissonant whispers) regardless of what weapon you are using and Truestrike makes it so you don't really have to prioritize Strength. The only levels you are really behind are 5-6. Other levels you are losing small amounts of damage, but not a lot of damage while pushing Intelligence through the casting feats (Warcaster, Shadow Touched, Fey Touched).

You can spam shillagh outside combat.

 

[FrogReaver]

You can spam shillagh outside combat.

The spamming of which comes with other potential consequences.

 

[FrogReaver]

i don't know where you're getting your calculations from but to say that at level 7 there is a deficit of 3 dpr is just wrong. yes you're doing more damage due to the adv, but only for the first round. the difference is literally .5 average, not 4. after that, they're still neck and neck with shillelaghs in the lead by .3
as for tactical shift, i dont see why thats a factor unless the distance is more than 40 feet. since it only activates when using second wind, id rather save it if im in a rough spot and need a quick retreat, since they are a limited resource like spell slots

Can you outline your level 7 character?

 

[FrogReaver]

I agree on all that, the main point I was making is that below level 11 there will be minimal if any increase in damage through Shilleleagh.

IMO. If one takes True Strike, Shillelagh, and Polearm Master on an EK by level 7 then I think that version of EK can do very good damage. At that point just let your first spell be a control spell along with Shillelagh and forget wrathful. Then follow up with PAM attack routine the rest of the battle.

Not clear to me if Shillelagh should overwrite the d4 on the polearm master attack. I'll assume not for now. That comes out something like (assuming 60% base chance to hit):

Attack Action
attack 1: d10+4(mod)+2(dueling)
bonus action attack: d4+4(mod)+2(dueling)
attack 2: d10+4(mod)+2(dueling)+3.5(true strike)

Your true strike attack will have a good chance of having advantage due to 2x topple attempts. ~59%
Your bonus action will have a worse chance of advantage at 36%

Altogether (with crits) it's 25 DPR on any turn you full attack + bonus action attack. You can also get a reaction attack. Your essentially down a turn but you do alot more damage when it comes up. Given the round reduction from not attacking round 1 the DPR comes out to 16.7 on a 3 round encounter and 18.6 on a 4 round encounter.

To put this in perspective, The rapier, vex, dueling and truestrike EK at level 7 was 17.6 DPR (assuming 2 rounds of attacking the same enemy before switching targets).

I think I'm more impressed with this version than your Wrathful Smite version. Especially since it better pairs with spells like Web or Tasha's (better control than Wrathful Smite provides, and better chance to land on that all important round 1, since they don't depend on any attack hitting to be able to use them).

TBH that is theory crafting max damage. In play I actually don't build or plan for that, the thing about EK is it is so versatile. Use whatever magic weapon you find - longsword, Rapier, Greatsword etc and then build around that "best weapon currently available" and change your fighting style as you find newer or better weapons.

I do hate being tied down to such a restrictive weapon list. I agree that's a downside.

Tactical Master

IMO, tactical master on turn 1 is mostly overrated if your turn 1 is mostly going to be control spell and don't get adjacent (wanting to trigger the PAM reaction attack).

There's also a good chance that some encounter you can have shillelagh precast. So turn 1 that may not interfere anyways. And then some encounters you won't need to start with a control spell (this version of EK has much better damage in that situation).