D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

[Reynard]

The question was whether the forced movement in this case (2024) triggered OA? The OP says it does, but I thought forced movement never triggered OA.

We've never had the forced movement in 2014 trigger OA, as that would contitute obviously dangerous movement.

The way we rule it, "forced movement" is only push or pull, not the target using their own mode of movement (for purposes of whether you get an OA). So you can't use thorn whip to get an OA, but you can with DW.

 

[Reynard]

Not thread-related, but any idea what you'll move on to next? My groups are all exploring different avenues, including homebrew material, so I'm curious if you have anything in mind?

Daggerheart, for sure, and I am planning a Western Reaches Shadowdark campaign once that KS fulfills at the end of the year. I will probably still play 5E since that is what one of my groups prefers, but they aren't likely to go to 2024 anyway.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

Daggerheart, for sure, and I am planning a Western Reaches Shadowdark campaign once that KS fulfills at the end of the year. I will probably still play 5E since that is what one of my groups prefers, but they aren't likely to go to 2024 anyway.

We just started looking at Daggerheart via the SRD. Oddly enough, it has many things my DM's homebrew uses, but also obviously includes a lot of stuff his doesn't!

It's frustrating. Everything we look at has "this is cool, or that is great" but also "man, we would never do that this way! or sorry, but that is really stupid". I'm sort of excited if WW does a Dark Ages game renewal. We'll see.

I swear, if we could make a game that was:

20% AD&D
15% DND 3E
15% DND 5E
15% Five Torches Deep
10% Shadowdark
10% Nimble
10% d20 Star Wars (Revised)
5% Miscellaneous like Ironsworn, Daggerheart, B/X, etc.

Roll it all up in a low-magic, gritty, medieval fantasy setting and we'd have our perfect game...

 

[Distracted DM]

Interesting, we haven't noticed that.

The Warlock has thus far been the most surprising:

One with Shadows is infinite Invisibility casts, they don't even have to stay in darkness/dim light to stay invisible, only to cast it.
Pact of the Blade lets them change their weapon damage to necrotic, psychic, or radiant on the fly. Resistances and immunities mean little to them
Lessons of the First Ones lets them pick up multiple origin feats, I was surprised when the warlock at in tier2 all of the sudden started asking me to have disadvantage on attack rolls against them, and having advantage on their attack rolls- they'd taken the Luck feat as an invocation :'D
Between the free invisibility and Luck points, they're crit-fishing for their eldritch smites quite successfully.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The way we rule it, "forced movement" is only push or pull, not the target using their own mode of movement (for purposes of whether you get an OA). So you can't use thorn whip to get an OA, but you can with DW.

The logic on that holds for me. They're moving under they're own power, they're just not choosing to do it.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

The way we rule it, "forced movement" is only push or pull, not the target using their own mode of movement (for purposes of whether you get an OA). So you can't use thorn whip to get an OA, but you can with DW.

The logic on that holds for me. They're moving under they're own power, they're just not choosing to do it.

See, I find that rather backwards.

If you grapple someone, and force them to move past their enemy, it seems like you would literally be "Here! I have them, hit them, hit them!" granting OAs against the target.

Meanwhile, if forced to use their movement, they are still in control of where they go, how they move (to a degree), etc. so seems like they NOT be subject to OAs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

See, I find that rather backwards.

If you grapple someone, and force them to move past their enemy, it seems like you would literally be "Here! I have them, hit them, hit them!" granting OAs against the target.

Meanwhile, if forced to use their movement, they are still in control of where they go, how they move (to a degree), etc. so seems like they NOT be subject to OAs.

Well, if grapple someone they are restrained, so it is easier to hit them I think. And any creature moving under their own power is potentially subject to OAs unless they are using the Disengage action.

 

[Koloth]

This is a problem with a lot of 1 vs Many encounters, regardless of the game system. If the 1 fails a save, it is often boned, while if one of the Many fails, the Many has a minor power drop. Plus, one of the Many can help the one who failed while the 1 has no such safety net. While the OPs example was 2 vs Many, it quickly did turn into a 1 vs Many.

One way to make the encounter a bit less of a saving throw crap shoot is the assume the Dragon has spent some time on defenses. Even a few Magic Mouth spells setup as an alarm system will prevent the Dragon from being behind the initiative curve when the encounter starts. If the Dragon, or other opponent, can't cast, maybe it traded a bit of loot for some casing services. Or even making a deal with some local Dwarves or similar for some doors between the lair and the dungeon at large. Or traps. The traps don't even have to be damaging, just noisy.

 

[Reynard]

This is a problem with a lot of 1 vs Many encounters, regardless of the game system. If the 1 fails a save, it is often boned, while if one of the Many fails, the Many has a minor power drop. Plus, one of the Many can help the one who failed while the 1 has no such safety net. While the OPs example was 2 vs Many, it quickly did turn into a 1 vs Many.

As a reminder: it did not start out as a solo. it had a (nearly equal, CR wise) partner, who got one shotted with a save or suck spell.

 

[Scribe]

I swear, if we could make a game that was:

20% AD&D
15% DND 3E
15% DND 5E
15% Five Torches Deep
10% Shadowdark
10% Nimble
10% d20 Star Wars (Revised)
5% Miscellaneous like Ironsworn, Daggerheart, B/X, etc.

Roll it all up in a low-magic, gritty, medieval fantasy setting and we'd have our perfect game...