Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[Deset Gled]

Yeah as has been said I think clearly in the setting the Force exists but I don't know that the points do. To my mind Force use is more like a skill check in that we see new practitioners struggling to do things (think: Luke trying to pull his lightsabre when trapped by the wampa) while experienced practitioners seem to be able to do things quite casually. We do sometimes see force users come up against some sort of point of power exhaustion (think: Palpatine vs Mace Windu, although I'm not sure how much of this is a bluff) but it's quite rare.

I'm guessing you're thinking of Force Points from a different SW RPG (to be fair, there are a lot). In the WEG D6 version, Force points are usable by any character - even those that aren't Force sensitive. And characters typically have very few of them, like 1 or 2. Using one allows you to double the number of d6 dice used in a roll.

They are a character resource that anyone can use to draw on the Force. And they follow Force rules; using them for good is good, using them for bad stuff gets you tainted with the Dark Side. In that regard, they are clearly an in-universe thing.

But they are also metacurrency on a few levels. For example, the are awarded/renewed at the end of an "adventure", not off of any in-world time reference . And you gain them by doing heroic things at the climax of an adventure, when it is "dramatically appropriate" or when "success is vital to the story".

I guess the take away from this is that in WEG Star Wars, the Force is aware of the fourth wall.

 

[soviet]

I'm guessing you're thinking of Force Points from a different SW RPG (to be fair, there are a lot). In the WEG D6 version, Force points are usable by any character - even those that aren't Force sensitive. And characters typically have very few of them, like 1 or 2. Using one allows you to double the number of d6 dice used in a roll.

They are a character resource that anyone can use to draw on the Force. And they follow Force rules; using them for good is good, using them for bad stuff gets you tainted with the Dark Side. In that regard, they are clearly an in-universe thing.

But they are also metacurrency on a few levels. For example, the are awarded/renewed at the end of an "adventure", not off of any in-world time reference . And you gain them by doing heroic things at the climax of an adventure, when it is "dramatically appropriate" or when "success is vital to the story".

I guess the take away from this is that in WEG Star Wars, the Force is aware of the fourth wall.

You guess incorrectly. I know all of this. The way they work in the game does not represent the way the Force works in the setting.

 

[soviet]

The points are an abstraction of a phenomenon within the fiction. Metacurrency, by definition, exist "meta" to the fiction, outside entirely.

Do you think that Force Points exist in the fiction of the game?

 

[Parmandur]

Do you think that Force Points exist in the fiction of the game?

Juat as much as hit points do, yes. Hit points are not a "meta" currency.

 

[soviet]

Juat as much as hit points do, yes. Hit points are not a "meta" currency.

You think hit points exist in the fiction as well? 'I'm down to my last few hit points' is something that one character would say to another inside the game world and be understood?

 

[Parmandur]

You think hit points exist in the fiction as well? 'I'm down to my last few hit points' is something that one character would say to another inside the game world and be understood?

They are not "meta" to the fiction, no. They are abstractions that represent in-fiction phenomenon for statistical calculation. A meta currency ia entirely "meta" to the world of the narrative, it is metafictional rather than mathematical simulation of the fictional phenomenon.

 

[soviet]

They are not "meta" to the fiction, no. They are abstractions that represent in-fiction phenomenon for statistical calculation. A meta currency ia entirely "meta" to the world of the narrative, it is metafictional rather than mathematical simulation of the fictional phenomenon.

You keep answering questions I haven't asked.
Do hit points exist in the game world, yes or no?
Do force points exist in the game world, yes or no?

 

[Parmandur]

You keep answering questions I haven't asked.
Do hit points exist in the game world, yes or no?
Do force points exist in the game world, yes or no?

They are mathematical constructs of what is in the fictional world, yes, obviously. Therefore not metafictional. Meta means "outside of". A characters hit points are a mathematical modeling of what is internal to the fiction, not something external to the fiction.

 

[soviet]

They are mathematical constructs of what is in the fictional world, yes, obviously. Therefore not metafictional. Meta means "outside of". A characters hit points are a mathematical modeling of what is internal to the fiction, not something external to the fiction.

You keep talking to me about meta and I've never once mentioned the word.

Hit points literally exist in the setting? They are mathematical constructs in the game world? It is an observable phenomena that people have a set amount of health based on their observable constitution and profession, and that some of those people are guaranteed to survive an axe blow or a 30 foot drop and others are not? Really?

 

[Parmandur]

You keep talking to me about meta and I've never once mentioned the word.

Hit points literally exist in the setting? They are mathematical constructs in the game world? It is an observable phenomena that people have a set amount of health based on their observable constitution and profession, and that some of those people are guaranteed to survive an axe blow or a 30 foot drop and others are not? Really?

We are talking about metacurrency, that is why meta is the central point here. If something is not meta, then it is not metacurrency. You may have not mentioned the word meta, it that is why I keep bringing it up to help bridge understanding.

Hit points are not a metacurrency, because they are not "meta", or beyond, the fiction. They are abstractions to mathematically model something within the fictional world.

Bennies in Savage World are not mathematical abstractions of something within the fiction, they are entirely outside of it.