Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[soviet]

We are talking about metacurrency, that is why meta is the central oint here. If something is not meta, then it is not metacurrency. You may have not mentioned the word meta, it that is why I keep bringing it up to help bridge understanding.

Hit points are not a metacurrency, because they are not "meta", or beyond, the fiction. They are abstractions to mathematically model something within the fictional world.

Bennies in Savage World are not mathematical abstractions of something within the fiction, they are entirely outside of it.

I'm not talking about metacurrency. You are. I'm talking about whether force points and hit points exist in the setting. I say that they do not. You say that they mathematically model something within the fictional world. I say that they do not.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm not talking about metacurrency. You are. I'm talking about whether force points and hit points exist in the setting. I say that they do not. You say that they mathematically model something within the fictional world. I say that they do not.

The conversation is about metacurrency, and whether hit points and force points are a metacurrency. They are not, because they are not meta to the fiction, but mathematical constructs of something on the fiction, namely health and the Force. A mwtacurrency, which was the topic of discussion, is not a model of something within the fiction but a currency that a player spends to influence the fiction in a metafictional way.

 

[soviet]

The conversation is about metacurrency, and whether hit points and force points are a metacurrency. They are not, because they are not meta to the fiction, but mathematical constructs of something on the fiction, namely health and the Force. A mwtacurrency, which was the topic of discussion, is not a model of something within the fiction but a currency that a player spends to influence the fiction in a metafictional way.

You don't get to determine what the conversation is about, and force all discussion into your false binary. You have spam responded to me with the same nonsense post about five times now. I would appreciate it if you would stop. My position is that hit points and force points do not exist in the setting. I am not interested in discussing this with you further.

 

[Parmandur]

You don't get to determine what the conversation is about, and force all discussion into your false binary. You have spam responded to me with the same nonsense post about five times now. I would appreciate it if you would stop. My position is that hit points and force points do not exist in the setting. I am not interested in discussing this with you further.

Listen, nobody is saying the points exist in the fiction, butnthey are. Model of something thst is in the fiction. The ongoing conversation was about metacurrency, and whether force points counted as one. They are a model of soemthignwitjin thfiction, so they are not.

 

[soviet]

Literally the post I responded to said that the points exist in the fiction

 

[Thomas Shey]

That's fair, but i think there is a difference between Force Points and, say, Buffy's Drama Points or Savage Worlds Bennies.

To a degree, but that's just a demo that there are matters of degree involved. Some metacurrencies are all the way over to the narrative support end; some are pretty solidly in-world even if they're constructed in a way to be mechanically convenient (back to WoD Willpower points). And there's some that have a leg in both camps (most of the Eclipse Phase pools related to certain kinds of actions that some morphs at better at, and they represent that, but they do it in what would have be considered a roundabout way that no one in-setting would think of it as).

 

[Thomas Shey]

No doubt, but that's where I stand.

Yeah, but that's like getting fussy about them being gamist. Its absolutely true, but it puts an awful lot of things off the plate that even someone who's not fond of gamism probably wants to be able to do. Similarly, if you accept that luck and inspiration are a real thing in the setting, you need to represent them somehow.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah as has been said I think clearly in the setting the Force exists but I don't know that the points do. To my mind Force use is more like a skill check in that we see new practitioners struggling to do things (think: Luke trying to pull his lightsabre when trapped by the wampa) while experienced practitioners seem to be able to do things quite casually. We do sometimes see force users come up against some sort of point of power exhaustion (think: Palpatine vs Mace Windu, although I'm not sure how much of this is a bluff) but it's quite rare.

Note a lot of the Force point usage is done by people not Force sensetive, so its frequency should probably be pretty uncommon--which it is. Past that it gets back to what way you want to express that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, but that's like getting fussy about them being gamist. Its absolutely true, but it puts an awful lot of things off the plate that even someone who's not fond of gamism probably wants to be able to do. Similarly, if you accept that luck and inspiration are a real thing in the setting, you need to represent them somehow.

I allow luck and inspiration mechanics (by which I mean mechanics explicitly designed to represent those things, not mechanics where they might be considered a factor) because my players want them and it's not worth the fight. I don't particularly care for them personally.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Note a lot of the Force point usage is done by people not Force sensetive, so its frequency should probably be pretty uncommon--which it is. Past that it gets back to what way you want to express that.

Like who?