D&D General Weapons should break left and right

The funny thing is, there are so many ways to do supply tracking that doesn't require all this fiddly one arrow tracking stuff. There are any number of abstract inventory systems in various RPG's that do it. And it's not like this is a new idea. I think someone mentioned WAAAAAY upthread the old World of Darkness wealth pips system where if you wanted to have an object, you made a check, and if you succeeded, then you have that item.

I mean, seriously. We're talking about whetstones as if that's the panacea of sword repair and keeping. Swords nick and chip, sure, but, swords also BEND. Being knocked out of true was a pretty common thing for swords. Makes sense when you think about it. The idea that all you need is a whetstone and a bit of spit and polish and your sword is good forever is just a bad joke. It's a nod to realism without any actual heft to it.

I'd much rather actually have a system of inventory management that was interesting and part of the game rather than, "Oh, did you tick off those three arrows"?
 

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old World of Darkness wealth pips system where if you wanted to have an object, you made a check, and if you succeeded, then you have that item.
Probably guilty for bringing that up. :D You made check only if you wanted to buy something that's out of your budget. Every dot in Resources was mix of lifestyle and disposable income. If item was in your bracket, you just bought it and that was that. No roll needed. To draw parallel with WoD. We just assumed characters had some stuff. Like mobile phone. Or gun cleaning kit for characters that used guns. No need to specify every single thing that character owns.
 


Originated in Pathfinder 1st edition, and the reasoning for it was that the moment magic users run out of spells they just stop being magical and become some rando with a crossbow, so they could as well spam cantrips sicne they're not powerful. Cantrips help keep the fantasy going without breakign immersion over arbitrary rules.
i don't think cantrips should be removed but the one concession to them i would make is reduce the amount they auto-scale, they don't need to scale three times, just once would be enough IMO, probably at like, 7th, casters don't need to become a rando with crossbow when they run out of slots but their fallback option doesn't need to be quite so good.

i know the comparison isn't 1-to-1, but it feels like cantrips get extra attack (x3) and nobody bats an eye, if all martials got EAx3 as standard i feel there would be chaos.
 

i don't think cantrips should be removed but the one concession to them i would make is reduce the amount they auto-scale, they don't need to scale three times, just once would be enough IMO, probably at like, 7th, casters don't need to become a rando with crossbow when they run out of slots but their fallback option doesn't need to be quite so good.

i know the comparison isn't 1-to-1, but it feels like cantrips get extra attack (x3) and nobody bats an eye, if all martials got EAx3 as standard i feel there would be chaos.
I mean, they kind of do, with all the bonus action attack options martials get. Plus, let's be honest, by the time you're doing 4d10 with firebolt, even CR 13's have 110-230 hit points. So what's 22 fire damage once per round at that point? The Rogue 17 can fire a lousy normal crossbow for 41 damage!

(Average damage, not taking into account Feats, subclass features, or magic items which could augment damage. There is, of course, the chance the Rogue somehow has disadvantage or for whatever reason, has no enemy in range within 5' of an ally, but I feel encountering fire resistance would be a more common occurrence than a Rogue unable to use Sneak Attack).
 

The funny thing is, there are so many ways to do supply tracking that doesn't require all this fiddly one arrow tracking stuff. There are any number of abstract inventory systems in various RPG's that do it. And it's not like this is a new idea. I think someone mentioned WAAAAAY upthread the old World of Darkness wealth pips system where if you wanted to have an object, you made a check, and if you succeeded, then you have that item.

I mean, seriously. We're talking about whetstones as if that's the panacea of sword repair and keeping. Swords nick and chip, sure, but, swords also BEND. Being knocked out of true was a pretty common thing for swords. Makes sense when you think about it. The idea that all you need is a whetstone and a bit of spit and polish and your sword is good forever is just a bad joke. It's a nod to realism without any actual heft to it.

I'd much rather actually have a system of inventory management that was interesting and part of the game rather than, "Oh, did you tick off those three arrows"?


One of the most compelling inventory management systems I've seen comes in the computer game Darkest Dungeon - for those unfamiliar it's a cosmic horror dungeon crawling game where the player manages a roster of heroes, choosing 4 each week to traverse procedurally generated dungeons to recover loot which they need to upgrade their home base, unlocking upgrades for the heroes which are then needed to challenge more difficult dungeons until they are ready to face the eponymous Darkest Dungeon itself. They begin each traversal by purchasing supplies and end each with (hopefully!) bags full of loot. It's a model we can recognise in structure if not detail from a fairly stereotypical D&D-like RPG.

The inventory system has a few major factors
  • Slot based - every item stacks to a different amount (so food stacks to 12 units, torches to 8, firewood for camping to 1, loot gems to 5, "permanent magic items" (trinkets) to 1 and so on) and is unique in a slot
  • Limited slots - you have 16 total slots to hold both provisions and loot
  • Any inventory item discarded is lost
  • Any loot obtained must be picked up before moving on from an encounter is lost (there's a slight exception to this with camping, but it's quite minor)
  • All provisions have defined and useful mechanical effects
  • Running out of provisions leaves the party very vulnerable
  • Provisions are (fairly) expensive and cannot be stockpiled between runs - any left at the end are sold at a fraction of their cost
  • Obtaining more provision in a dungeon is possible but unreliable - plus it often relies on additional provision usage (medicinal herbs to make safe tainted food, for example)
  • Possibly most importantly, It is not possible to significantly escape the confines of the system (there's a couple of minor things that allow you to increase the stack sizes, but that's it) No bags of holding, no hirelings carrying loot, no mules or carts.
These together are largely utterly unrealistic - purely gamist constructs. Why shouldn't I be able to put a ruby and emerald in the same pocket? Why can't I hang on to my unused torches and shovels? Why can't I leave caches of supplies or loot behind and pick them up later (we might posit wandering monsters clearing them up, the game has them, but it happens immediately with no chance of failure)?

Taken together however, they produce an experience that I think evokes the thoughts and behaviours that we'd like to experience with an inventory system

  • Preparation is important - too few supplies is dangerous, too many is wasteful. The right mix of supplies is also of critical importance.
  • Rationing of supplies is important - it's often possible to obtain extra loot by non-critical use of a provision but doing so may lead to danger later when the provision is needed. Conversely, not taking advantage of opportunities risks the provision being wasted
  • Choosing what loot to take and what to leave is important - because of the stacking rules picking up a ruby might prevent you from picking up a jade, but if you never find another ruby and find several jades, you'll have missed out on an opportunity for more value
  • Choosing when to discard provisions in favour of loot is a continual battle - there's typically more loot in a dungeon than you can carry out, but if you wait until your provisions run out naturally then you risk leaving behind valuable or rare pieces that you might not find again.
  • You are incentivised to use provisions - any left over are lost so there's no hanging onto a potion forever for "just the right time"
Overall, this results in an experience where the player can learn and exhibit skill at play and where they are continually faced with weighty and fairly difficult choices. It also invokes what we might feel is a fairly "realistic" set of pressures - our heroes, in a treacherous and deadly environment scrabbling for what resources they can, leaving dead weight behind for the valuables they seek.

To bring it to the topic of the actual thread, it's worth noting that weapon degradation and ammunition tracking are not part of this at all, but in theory could be.

The question is therefore - could we develop an inventory system that's of fairly low overhead at the table (so the cost of using it is fairly low) that produces the same kind of compelling questions for the player and evokes the similar "realistic" concerns for the characters?
 


Originated in Pathfinder 1st edition, and the reasoning for it was that the moment magic users run out of spells they just stop being magical and become some rando with a crossbow, so they could as well spam cantrips sicne they're not powerful. Cantrips help keep the fantasy going without breaking immersion over arbitrary rules.
Keep in mind Lanefan has zero issue with a character being or becoming useless randos with a crossbow. The notion is you go into a dungeon with six spells, 20 pieces of ammo, a dagger and a reinforced walking stick and Gods help you if you don't make it back out by the time you have used or broken all of that.
 
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One of the most compelling inventory management systems I've seen comes in the computer game Darkest Dungeon - for those unfamiliar it's a cosmic horror dungeon crawling game where the player manages a roster of heroes, choosing 4 each week to traverse procedurally generated dungeons to recover loot which they need to upgrade their home base, unlocking upgrades for the heroes which are then needed to challenge more difficult dungeons until they are ready to face the eponymous Darkest Dungeon itself. They begin each traversal by purchasing supplies and end each with (hopefully!) bags full of loot. It's a model we can recognise in structure if not detail from a fairly stereotypical D&D-like RPG.

The inventory system has a few major factors
  • Slot based - every item stacks to a different amount (so food stacks to 12 units, torches to 8, firewood for camping to 1, loot gems to 5, "permanent magic items" (trinkets) to 1 and so on) and is unique in a slot
  • Limited slots - you have 16 total slots to hold both provisions and loot
  • Any inventory item discarded is lost
  • Any loot obtained must be picked up before moving on from an encounter is lost (there's a slight exception to this with camping, but it's quite minor)
  • All provisions have defined and useful mechanical effects
  • Running out of provisions leaves the party very vulnerable
  • Provisions are (fairly) expensive and cannot be stockpiled between runs - any left at the end are sold at a fraction of their cost
  • Obtaining more provision in a dungeon is possible but unreliable - plus it often relies on additional provision usage (medicinal herbs to make safe tainted food, for example)
  • Possibly most importantly, It is not possible to significantly escape the confines of the system (there's a couple of minor things that allow you to increase the stack sizes, but that's it) No bags of holding, no hirelings carrying loot, no mules or carts.
These together are largely utterly unrealistic - purely gamist constructs. Why shouldn't I be able to put a ruby and emerald in the same pocket? Why can't I hang on to my unused torches and shovels? Why can't I leave caches of supplies or loot behind and pick them up later (we might posit wandering monsters clearing them up, the game has them, but it happens immediately with no chance of failure)?

Taken together however, they produce an experience that I think evokes the thoughts and behaviours that we'd like to experience with an inventory system

  • Preparation is important - too few supplies is dangerous, too many is wasteful. The right mix of supplies is also of critical importance.
  • Rationing of supplies is important - it's often possible to obtain extra loot by non-critical use of a provision but doing so may lead to danger later when the provision is needed. Conversely, not taking advantage of opportunities risks the provision being wasted
  • Choosing what loot to take and what to leave is important - because of the stacking rules picking up a ruby might prevent you from picking up a jade, but if you never find another ruby and find several jades, you'll have missed out on an opportunity for more value
  • Choosing when to discard provisions in favour of loot is a continual battle - there's typically more loot in a dungeon than you can carry out, but if you wait until your provisions run out naturally then you risk leaving behind valuable or rare pieces that you might not find again.
  • You are incentivised to use provisions - any left over are lost so there's no hanging onto a potion forever for "just the right time"
Overall, this results in an experience where the player can learn and exhibit skill at play and where they are continually faced with weighty and fairly difficult choices. It also invokes what we might feel is a fairly "realistic" set of pressures - our heroes, in a treacherous and deadly environment scrabbling for what resources they can, leaving dead weight behind for the valuables they seek.

To bring it to the topic of the actual thread, it's worth noting that weapon degradation and ammunition tracking are not part of this at all, but in theory could be.

The question is therefore - could we develop an inventory system that's of fairly low overhead at the table (so the cost of using it is fairly low) that produces the same kind of compelling questions for the player and evokes the similar "realistic" concerns for the characters?
I would say, for Inventory managment, the system by the Alexandrian - the inventory by Stonehenge 5E Encumbrance by Stone – Part 2: The Sheet is a good starting point for simplicity and Upkeep. It could be improved (and I have some mock ups for improve inventory sheets that are this slot based), but the Idea that the action of writing down your item also informs you visually immediately of how much "encumbrance" is left, is quite good in comparison to the current system, where you always have to add up the weight of all the stuff.

But even that will fall flat in current D&D, because tracking inventory and encumbrance doesn't do anything.

If you really track encumbrance dutyfully, it will not impact gameplay at all in 95% of the time and in the last 5% it just gives you a penalty for being over encumbred.

So tracking encumbrance is mostly just busy work.
It is meaningless.
To change that there need to be benefits of tracking encumbrance. Like ... if you wear less than 1/4 of you carry capacity, you gain 5ft of movement speed and gain advantage on dex saving throws or something.

You need different boni/malu at different %ages of carrying capacity, so tracking the difference of carrying 20% and 30% or 90% of you max. capacity does impact game play.

Because right now, tracking encumbrance has no impact, unless you carry more than 100%.
 

i don't think cantrips should be removed but the one concession to them i would make is reduce the amount they auto-scale, they don't need to scale three times, just once would be enough IMO, probably at like, 7th, casters don't need to become a rando with crossbow when they run out of slots but their fallback option doesn't need to be quite so good.
if you are doing 4d8 or 4d10 damage as a 17th or even 20th level wizard as an combat Action, you are doing something wrong.
at that level, doing that is more or less is a waste of an Action
i know the comparison isn't 1-to-1, but it feels like cantrips get extra attack (x3) and nobody bats an eye, if all martials got EAx3 as standard i feel there would be chaos.
All martials should get EA×3, at levels 5,11 and 17.
rogue could get EA×1 at 11th.
 

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