D&D 5E (2024) [+] What does a non-spellcaster Psion need/look like?

[Crimson Longinus]

To have something that might feel more different from D&D's traditional spellcasting, would be to have more freeform power system. I think something similar to the magic system in Mage the Ascension. Something that resembles more of skill use than spellcasting. So you'd have telepathy, telekinesis, pyromancy, biomancy etc "skills" then there would be various feats and DCs for them. It might cost some resources to attempt this at all, or alternatively you could burn resources to magnify the effect. Like to push a creature back, you roll telkiness with the DC based on the creature's size, and then you can burn power points to push them further or something like this. And of course you could try anything that sounds feasible instead of just the listed effects. But given how barebones 5e skill system is, it would require a lot of work to design a system that would work well like this. And it also perhaps is too divergent and might feel out of place in the game.

 

[Yaarel]

I am looking thru the 2e Psionicist.

Its "powers", both major sciences and minor devotions, are just spells.

Once its MAD-ness discontinues, the d20 roll is standardized for higher is better, perhaps the target saves instead of the caster attacks, and most importantly the broken powers get fixed whether nerf or buff or level prereq, ... it is just spells. I see how the 2e Psionicist translated into the 3e Psion: systematic standardization.

Clairvoyance, Spirit Sense (Detect Evil and Good), Disintegrate, Inertial Barrier (Shield + Air Bubble), etcetera. All spells.

I see the legitimacy of a noncaster psionic class, but the 2e Psionicist is a less helpful model for it. Once a designer tries to make the 2e class work well within the 5e gaming engine, it is going to end up again as the fullcaster of the updated UA Psion.


I feel the most fruitful way forward to make a psionic noncaster, is to make a psionic "superhero" class. It is a simple mage with a handful of always-on useful powers. While advancing levels these handful of powers improve. Maybe additionally, the "5e Energy Dice" can augment them for buffs and special stunts. The inspiration is superheroes like X-Men, and its mechanics as simple as possible (but not simpler). Superboy (Kon-El) is awesomely psionic via his "tactile telekinesis": telekinetic flight, telekinetic force armor, and telekinetically enhanced strength. Possibly he even has a dash of prescience via special senses and fast learning. Just a handful of powers that are balanced at level 1 and that scale well to spell slot 9 amounts of effectiveness by level 17. I wonder if one power per proficiency bonus would be enough to work. Maybe the subclass adds one or two more.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am looking thru the 2e Psionicist.

Its "powers", both major sciences and minor devotions, are just spells.

Once its MAD-ness discontinues, the d20 roll is standardized for higher is better, perhaps the target saves instead of the caster attacks, and most importantly the broken powers get fixed whether nerf or buff or level prereq, ... it is just spells. I see how the 2e Psionicist translated into the 3e Psion: systematic standardization.

Clairvoyance, Spirit Sense (Detect Evil and Good), Disintegrate, Inertial Barrier (Shield + Air Bubble), etcetera. All spells.

I see the legitimacy of a noncaster psionic class, but the 2e Psionicist is a less helpful model for it. Once a designer tries to make the 2e class work well within the 5e gaming engine, it is going to end up again as the fullcaster of the updated UA Psion.


I feel the most fruitful way forward to make a psionic noncaster, is to make a psionic "superhero" class. It is a simple mage with a handful of always-on useful powers. While advancing levels these handful of powers improve. Maybe additionally, the "5e Energy Dice" can augment them for buffs and special stunts. The inspiration is superheroes like X-Men, and its mechanics as simple as possible (but not simpler). Superboy (Kon-El) is awesomely psionic via his "tactile telekinesis": telekinetic flight, telekinetic force armor, and telekinetically enhanced strength. Possibly he even has a dash of prescience via special senses and fast learning. Just a handful of powers that are balanced at level 1 and that scale well to spell slot 9 amounts of effectiveness by level 17. I wonder if one power per proficiency bonus would be enough to work. Maybe the subclass adds one or two more.

2E ones debatable as psionics could bypass MR.

Not sure 3.0.

3.5 was basically variant spellcasting. Only one out of 4 takes I've liked tbh.

 

[mellored]

Right, but what really is "a spell?" Because if we have discrete powers that have clearly defined effects then that to me is "a spell" even if we call it something else.

I don't have an issue with psions casting "spells" so much as them using "spell slots" to do it.

This is where I was reading the thread title. I was thinking a non-caster would be more a fighter or fighter/monk maybe. I keep seeing taking spells and making them 'powers' or 'Jedi mind trix' but to me they are all just spells. So, I'm not sure if there can be a non-caster psion to me.

To make what I think the thread is looking for might be to take a few at-will cantrips and allow them to scale with level. I can see spells like Shield and Thunderwave being able to use 1/short rest or proficiency bonus times per day. This seems to give them the Jedi feel. I could also see some Swordmage things added to make them more mobile with the limited teleport.

Monk makes more sense IMO.

Flurry of Befuddlement
Patent Thought
Step on the Wits
Deflect Attention
Stunning Sanity
Heightened Focus
Delect Enthusiasm
Perfect Focus

 

[Yaarel]

2E ones debatable as psionics could bypass MR.

The "not magic" was a game balance issue whenever psionic versus arcane-divine happened, which was often: mutually powerful attacks and little or no defenses. So whoever targeted first won. It was rocket tag.

In other contexts, it became a game of tigers-versus-sharks. One player would enter into a psionic combat while the other players went and watched television.

When the game engine inevitably fixed these problems, the result is necessarily "psionics is magic", for mechanical reasons. And narratively, how could psionics not be a method of magic?

3.5 was basically variant spellcasting. Only one out of 4 takes I've liked tbh.

Yeah, I love the 3e (3.5) fullcaster Psion too. I am glad the 5e Psion derives from this.

(Despite loving 4e and psionics, 4e psionics lacked, missing the opportunity to normalize psionics, by creating fringe mechanics even when the other classes were using the same AEDU power schedule.)

I don't have an issue with psions casting "spells" so much as them using "spell slots" to do it.

That is my feeling too. I am fine with spells, but strongly prefer spell points.

I am ok with the Verbal and Somatic components because they are ones own thought and body, ones own self. But the costly gp component feels too external and too impersonal, and too antipsionic.

 

[Yaarel]

For a noncaster psionic class, the Dispel Magic spell is effective against the psionic effects. But the Counterspell would fail against the manifestations. So at least there is that.

For the noncaster, I mention the "superhero" concept earlier. Relatedly is the 4e Swordmage. What is awesome about this class is, it is a fullcaster, except its spells are mainly melee range. It doesnt "kite" and snipe from a distance. It is always upclose and personal, in the frontline of the combat − like a superhero. 5e is still missing this concept.

Conceptually, this melee mage doesnt hit to deal weapon damage, it casts a spell at the melee target that doesnt need Concentration and whose hit inflicts a magical effect, such as one of the other damage types, or a stun effect or shapeshift the target or whatever. Compare the tactile telekinesis of Superboy, a punch that hits would be inflicting Force damage rather than Bludgeon. His superspeed would be defacto teleporting to engage any target in the area in melee combat. Alternatively, if the melee mage is a telepath, the melee-range attack would deal Psychic damage, or any other mental Enchantment effect. And so on.

While this concept can be fullcaster, the same concept can also work as a "simple mage" noncaster. This noncaster only has a handful of spells powers, and typically always on. So the whole apparatus of spellcasting − prepared spells to swap spells in-and-out and spell slots to eventually run out of spells − is irrelevant. These psionic class-feature powers would refer to spell slot levels for the sake of balancing the magic effects and scaling appropriately, but wouldnt be spells. These powers would be immune to Counterspell and immune to the disruption of Concentration. At the same time, it is probably simple enough for the psionic "energy dice" that several 5e psi class features use, to heighten a power here to augment the power effect.

I would love a psionic class like this. I refer to the superhero genre. But actually a magical being that has certain specific magic powers is normal for many stories about magic, including medieval stories. Meanwhile the Psion fullcaster is closer to the stories about mages whose various thoughts can cause diverse magical effects. Both have their place within the medievalesque genre.