D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Crimson Longinus]

At that point, the DM can just save themselves a few hundred bucks and just play in FKR or even go forum/discord RP.

I just finished running the third session of an ongoing political intrigue arc in my D&D campaign. We have used plenty of the rules. Skills, spells, also some combat (what is political intrigue without some assassins?) Works very well.

 

[Minigiant]

I always said that if I won the lottery, I would design a RPG that focuses on political intrigue, group combat, and mass combat and skips out on the exploration, adventuring, and dungeons.

Like High Magic ASOIAF.

D&D is really close. Just have to add some skills and spells, enforce language, and lower per day resources.

 

[tetrasodium]

It wasn't empty. It was open ended deliberately. Unless the group has agreed to play a boardgame instead of a roleplaying game when they play D&D, narrative consequences will almost always matter in some way. How will depend on the party and the details of the scenario.

No because the GM needs to be able to hold credible problems or that bold bit only matters as far as players choose to allow it to impact every future scenario.

The consequences may be mechanical in nature, such as a paladin knowing that stopping to rest will cause the deaths of innocents becoming an Oathbreaker. They may have no mechanics attached whatsoever. Being banished from the kingdom with all properties taken by the state. Or they may be a combination. The king hires bounty hunters/assassins to get the party.

"May be mechanical"? I was explicitly clear. WHAT are they since you assert they exist.

 

[Weiley31]

No snark: It sounds as though you reinvented/repurposed the Mythic Monsters mechanic. I've found that works well for boss-type combats--I had a Mythic CR 30 dragon as the climactic fight in the last campaign I wrapped up, it worked well.

Man, it sucks that WoTC has pretty much forgotten about the Mythic trait for monsters at this point.

 

[Maxperson]

No because the GM needs to be able to hold credible problems or that bold bit only matters as far as players choose to allow it to impact every future scenario.

If the players have agreed to play their character in a roleplaying version of the game, then they will not ignore narrative consequences. For example, a good party isn't going to rest and let the princess die just because they aren't at 100% resources. That would be bad faith play for a good group like that.

Assuming the players are playing in good faith, then their characters are a part of the game world fiction and care about what happens in it. They won't shrug their shoulders at the princess dying when playing heroes.

"May be mechanical"? I was explicitly clear. WHAT are they since you assert they exist

I mean, I listed one in the quote there.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Sure, but one day is not a lot of time and keeping constant time pressure at such a pace becomes contrived.

A day here and a day there might not make a difference, however cumulatively they may become impactful particularly in your typical 5e AP or module where you will see at certain story points the time pressure will become an issue...

Murder in Baldurs Gate - days lost sees the city gradually spiral out of control as everyone becomes more manic and the death count increases.

Legacy of the Crystal Shard - The adventure has a built in timeline for events.

Hoard of the Dragon Queen - The PCs may actually delay themselves getting to the Raiders Camp, trailing the Cult to Baldurs Gate or hitching a ride with the caravan up to Waterdeep. They may even miss the entire Skycastle and have to hear about it from the residents of Parnast. If they attack and rest, attack and rest with Castle Naerytar surely the Black Wyrmspeaker will raise the necessary defenses, perhaps reach out to the Mere's black dragon for assistance.

Tyranny of Dragons - Delays could see Varram sacrificed by the Yuanti, the Green Wyrmspeaker and Chuth departing for the Well of Dragons, failures in quests could affect the outcome of the Council Scorecard, being late for the Well of Dragons and Tiamats arrival etc

Storm Kings Thunder - Delays may see increased giant attacks around the Sword Coast and the North, perhaps even causing the inadvertent failures of minor quests in Chapter 3.
Delays could see the death of King Hekaton, the evil Storm Sisters declaring war on the smallfolk (with Iymrith's influence), the escape of Drylund, the Jarl and his giants finding the Ring of Winter in Chult, the fire giants building their gargantuan construct with the use of Maegra and unleashing it0...etc

Descent into Avernus - Delays in Baldurs Gate could see increased retaliations by the Varathampurs or their escape from Waterdeep, taking with them the infernal puzzle box and shield...And that is just the first chapter.

And so on and so on...
Like I said a day here or there may not matter but the APs and modules have choke points where these days do matter.
It is part of your responsibility as GM to ensure that pacing pressure exists.
And this pressure may also come in the form of straining relationships with allies and loved ones, with gossip and tales, damage to reputation, loss of titles or privileges.

Also, what is the GMing advice in the books for doing this?

Cannot remember off hand what is in the DMG on this issue but the options of delays and alternate events are certainly discussed in the modules and APs.

 

[James Gasik]

On the other hand, some adventures are basically static, and have no ability to react to the player's actions. Acererak's Tomb of Horrors or The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, for examples. You're actually meant to take your time and be cautious, so not only is there no reason not to rest, you literally; should when possible.

While Keraptis could react to the PC's actions in White Plume Mountain, as written, he only steps in after they recover the weapons and try to take them away. There's a lot of "classic" adventures that function in this manner, and even among the ones where the enemies can take action if the players take too much time, it's often on the DM to figure out what form that takes.

Now granted, the "Wandering Monsters Tables" in such adventures can be used to good effect, but really, if the players have demonstrated that they can rest safely for 8 hours, it doesn't really matter how many more fights they get into- it's just more experience points for them!

5e's resource model is woefullly inefficient when it comes to ye olde "ancient tomb sealed for a thousand years"- and the DM shouldn't have to A) not run such adventures, or B) come up with a timeline of events just to keep the game from imploding. And of course, what happens when bad luck forces a rest or makes the party unavailable to continue? Now your clock might ensure they fail through no fault of their own.

In "old school" play, adventurers are supposed to be cautious, to advance slowly, never overcommit, gain as much information as they can, plan and prepare ahead of time for difficult fights- maybe even trying to avoid them entirely!

It seems interesting that after five decades, we have a version of D&D that breaks if players actually do anything besides rush ahead until their batteries are drained, and DM's have to conspire to keep them running full tilt, and actually punishing that sort of methodical play, which logically any sane person in universe would be attempting!

 

[AnotherGuy]

This has the possibility to feel like railroading or adversarial GMing: but this is the role that 5e D&D gives to the GM.

This is very true.
Consistency in ruling, being transparent where possible, using player facing mechanics frequently, revealing to players how their ideas bested the scenario, open dialogue between GM and players re mechanics (because both sides make errors), elevating gamism and allowing instances of player input in colour and elements of storyline (even if minor) and the willingness to go off script are some of the best practices I have found to engender trust and a sense/taste of player-empowerment in the weaving of a partly established story (published APs) in which the GM has so much narrative control.

 

[Scott Christian]

The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan

Having played this in 5e as part of the Yawning Portal, I can tell you that it does not matter if you rest or not.

 

[Scott Christian]

The biggest one was the one you quoted right after me, and other posts from that poster.

Post it then. Please. It should be easy. Show me where they discounted the advice in the DMG.