D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Lanefan]

... mudflation style bags of hp clad in tissue paper. ...

Apropos of nothing else, this is the best line I've seen today!

 

[Zardnaar]

Apropos of nothing else, this is the best line I've seen today!

Yup its a good one.

 

[pemerton]

They can't be, can they? Didn't he claim they never made it to that level? Of the two people discussing high level 4e, only one actually has experience with the game at that level...

I guess when you put it like that . . .

I also think there may be a failure to have regard to all the complex build elements of a 4e PC, and the (many) ways in which they interact. And that's before we get to party synergies.

It is a very intricate game.

 

[Zardnaar]

I guess when you put it like that . . .

You dont need to play it when its right there in black and white. Go read the 4E phb level 15-19 powers and compare them to 5E spells.

They're roughly 3rd level. Hit points are similar in monsters, 4E MM creatures lack damage.

Hence complaints about 4E combat taking a long time. 5E ramped up damage a lot.

Modified by whatever paragon tier gives you (usually weaker than 5E class ability). And most of it is low damage+rider.

Magic items as well but the design paradigm is to different in that regard.

 

[pemerton]

You dont need to play it when its right there in black and white. Go read the 4E phb level 15-19 powers and compare them to 5E spells.

They're roughly 3rd level. Hit points are similar in monsters, 4E MM creatures lack damage.

Hence complaints about 4E combat taking a long time. 5E ramped up damage a lot.

I've posted examples, which you seem to be ignoring.

A high epic tier fighter can do 600 hp of the damage to the tarrasque in one round. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D. A high epic tier invoker can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D.

I already commented on the 19th level wizard spells, and explained why they are not the same as 3rd level spells in 5e. The differences become even more marked when regard is had to the other differences between 4e and 5e. A 3rd level fireball in 5e does an average of 28 hp of damage before saves. An Ogre has 59 hp. Even a 20th level wizard's fireball won't eliminate a group of ogres. In 4e D&D, when a 19th level wizard encounters Ogres, it's likely that at least some of them are minions. On a hit, any damage will defeat them. As will auto-damage. And a horde of Ogres, statted as a swarm, will take extra damage from an AoE attack.

Here is a 9th level 5e AoE control spell, Weird:

You try to create illusory terrors in others’ minds. Each creature of your choice in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point within range makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 10d10 Psychic damage and has the Frightened condition for the duration. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage only.

A Frightened target makes a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it takes 5d10 Psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends on that target.​

In 4e terms, that is something like this:

Area burst 5 in 20

Hit: 4d10 + INT psychic damage and ongoing 20 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both). First failed save: ongoing 50 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both).

Miss: Half damage.​

Frightened, in 4 terms, is something like Has -5 to attacks, skill checks and ability checks, and cannot move closer to the caster.

That's not a bad control effect. But the only respect in which it's obviously better than Evard's Black Tentacles is that it does more damage. The fact that wizards in 4e are not big damage dealers is a design feature. The Sorcerer in my 4e game did not feel like an underperformer in the damage department, with an average of 60+ hp of damage at-will AoE attack at the top of epic.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've posted examples, which you seem to be ignoring.

A high epic tier fighter can do 600 hp of the damage to the tarrasque in one round. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D. A high epic tier invoker can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D.

I already commented on the 19th level wizard spells, and explained why they are not the same as 3rd level spells in 5e. The differences become even more marked when regard is had to the other differences between 4e and 5e. A 3rd level fireball in 5e does an average of 28 hp of damage before saves. An Ogre has 59 hp. Even a 20th level wizard's fireball won't eliminate a group of ogres. In 4e D&D, when a 19th level wizard encounters Ogres, it's likely that at least some of them are minions. On a hit, any damage will defeat them. As will auto-damage. And a horde of Ogres, statted as a swarm, will take extra damage from an AoE attack.

Here is a 9th level 5e AoE control spell, Weird:

You try to create illusory terrors in others’ minds. Each creature of your choice in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point within range makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 10d10 Psychic damage and has the Frightened condition for the duration. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage only.

A Frightened target makes a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it takes 5d10 Psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends on that target.​

In 4e terms, that is something like this:

Area burst 5 in 20

Hit: 4d10 + INT psychic damage and ongoing 20 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both). First failed save: ongoing 50 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both).

Miss: Half damage.​

Frightened, in 4 terms, is something like Has -5 to attacks, skill checks and ability checks, and cannot move closer to the caster.

That's not a bad control effect. But the only respect in which it's obviously better than Evard's Black Tentacles is that it does more damage. The fact that wizards in 4e are not big damage dealers is a design feature. The Sorcerer in my 4e game did not feel like an underperformer in the damage department, with an average of 60+ hp of damage at-will AoE attack at the top of epic.

I didn't say 5th level was equivalent to a epic character. I said the level 19 spells are roughly equivalent to a 3rd level spell.

That's not what people are thinking of if youre playing high level. It feels completely fake for high level. Same with minions.

The epic 4E level 29 powers are roughly equivalent to 5th maybe 6th level spells.

My original claim was 4E essentially stretched out level 3-10 over 30 levels. You can see it right there in the phb in black and white. Check those wizard powers out.

You get paragon and epic ability which is roughly equivalent to a 5E class ability and epic boon or two. 4E power design was why the game was so grindy. They had to slow things down to make concept work. Once again it feels fake. Meteor Swarm 8d6 damage level 29. 5E 40d6 and its not even one of the power spells.

5Es power level is also why the game starts to fall apart level 13 I'll also admit that. You can make it work but fun/effort ratio is off ymmv.

 

[Eric V]

Feeling high level isn't just about how much damage one can put out as a player.

It's also about what one can survive. In epic 4e, you can be sure that the opponent will survive long enough to use abilities that are frightening and devastating and it feels epic to survive them (or quickly render them ineffectual in the case of a cleric, for example).

Epic tales are at least as much about what one survived as about how much hellfire one rained down. Epic 4e makes sure you know your PC was in an epic fight against epic opponents.

 

[pemerton]

How would you compare them, then? What 1e level is a 4e 19th comparable to, and what 4e level is a 1e 7th comparable to?

A 19th level PC is close to Epic tier. Here's an example of an episode of upper-Paragon play:

After a duergar theurge called Framath helped the PCs in their fight with a hydra, which left the PCs in possession of a 4th piece of the Sceptre of Law (= Rod of 7 Parts), the PCs returned with her to the duergar stronghold so that they (i) take an extended rest, and (ii) repay the debt they owed her for her help. (They made it clear that they were not going to give her even a piece of the Sceptre as repayment!)

In the duergar stronghold, the PCs were housed in two separate groups. The invoker/wizard who wields the Sceptre, and the tiefling paladin who respects the duergars' reliability and empathises with their past dealings with devils, were housed in pleasant quarters. The dwarf fighter/cleric of Moradin, the elven ranger, and the drow chaos sorcerer, were housed in dingy quarters. The drow was in a bad way for two reasons: (i) his channelling of chaos energy in the fight with the hydra had blinded him and has Robe of Eyes (although he was able to attune himself to chaos emanations, gaining a variable blindsight); and (ii) the duergar didn't trust him, given that he is a drow wearing demonskins emblazoned with runes of chaos.

<snip>

the drow received a mysterious telepathic communication from a being calling itself "Pazrael", telling him that if only he would open a doorway in a warehouse in an out-of-the-way part of the hold then his blindness would be cured. Deciding that he was sick of being cooped up, the drow sneaked out to the designated location, and after some scouting out, and some wrestling with his conscience, decided to "open" the door by blasting it with the Winds of Change. When he did (i) his blindness was lifted, as promised, (ii) a magical gate opened in the doorway, and (iii) some duergar guards heard the (loud) noise and came to investigate. They found the gate, but the drow managed to persuade them that he was in the area because he heard the noise, rather than that he was the one who had helped open it. (This was resolved as a skill challenge, with only partial success.)

The guards nevertheless took the drow before the leader of the hold (and Pechuk's rival), Murkelmor.

<snip>

news came to Murelmor that hordes of demons were now attacking through the gate. Naturally, the PCs were in the vanguard of the response! This fight unfolded in two stages. First, the PCs (minus the ranger, whose player had to go home - we took it that he was on his flying carpet helping the duergar off-screen) came to the gate and fought the demons guarding it - a nabassu, a shaadee and a (levelled up) Jovoc - as well as a flight of vrocks that flew in to attack them (elite Gargantuan swarm). The two biggest tactical challenges here were (i) bringing the vrocks to ground - once they did this, they didn't have too much trouble with them), and (ii) the shaadee's domination, which I got off twice in a row against the sorcerer PC, who was therefore blasting away the defenders' hit points with Blazing Starfalls. Once the sorcerer's player got his actions back, he blasted the demon away with some well-placed demonsoul bolts (which pushed it off the roof of the building it was lurking on, for bonus damage). But just as the PCs were finishing off the demons, they got a shock when Orcus (or, as it turned out, an Aspect thereof) came through the gate.

At the same time that this happened, the ranger PC came onto the scene chasing mobs of orcs (two Huge swarms), plus half-a-dozen ogres - slaves of the duergar in revolt under the leadership of an ogre dreadnought and trying to escape through the gate. (In the real world, Orcus's arrrival marked the end of one session, and when we reconvened a fortnight later the ranger's player was back on deck.) The players opted to focus on Orcus while holding off the slaves, or picking them up in AoEs. The paladin was maintaining a Righteous Inferno, which in conjunction with some other terrain features forced the orcs and ogres to focus on the defenders rather than the squishy sorcerer and invoker.

As his 19th level daily the invoker's player had chosen Forced Submission (a relibale save-ends domination power), and decided that now was the time to use it. He hit first time, despite needing 15+ - he had bonuses from Preserver's Rebuke, Knowledge is Power (Divine Philosopher ability) and combat advantage due to Orcus being in the paladin's Inferno. So Orcus spent two turns dominated: on the first he threw his Wand through the gate, which the sorcerer then blocked off by raising a pillar of earth in front of it (6th level utility from Heroes of the Elemental Chaos); on the second he clawed ineffectually at the ogre leader (who had got too close to the invoker for the invoker's comfort!).

After that it was all downhill for Orcus, as the ranger pelted him with arrows, and the other PCs wailed on him too), and while the revolting slaves managed to pile quite a bit of damage onto the defenders (especially the fighter), good healing tactics kept them up. Meanwhile the invoker shut down the gate - this took four actions (three standards and a minor) but was done in a single turn using a Timeless Locket and Uncanny Insight. In the course of this, he worked out that the gate had runes of Pazrael inscribed around its edge, but that it was not opening onto the Plane of 1000 Portals. He also detected a strange disembodied presence, which offered him help in shutting down the gate. He declined the help, but opted to shut the gate quickly rather than try and force the presence back through it (mechanically, he finished the skill challenge at 4 rather than 6 successes). Shutting the gate hurt Orcus further, debuffing him on defences and damage, and he was killed (fittingly enough) by an arrow from the ranger, who is also a cleric of the Raven Queen. (The paladin, who also serves the Raven Queen, and whose turn was up next, was forgiving of this kill steal by a fellow devotee.)

At this point it seemed like things were OK. The PCs had seen Murkelmor fall in trying to quell the slaves, but otherwise things looked OK. When the disembodied voice vowed vengeance against the invoker and his duergar friends, he laughed it off and set about conjuring a Magic Circle to trap the body of Orcus's Aspect, and thereby (hopefully) depriving Orcus of some of his essence. (He used a jewel carved in the shape of an eye that had earlier been taken from a worshipper of Vecna as a focus to make the Circle permanent - the players liked the idea of having Vecna be their watcher over Orcus.)

In AD&D terms, this is in the same general ballpark as D3 or Q1, and so I guess 10th to 14th level.

In AD&D, 7th level PCs are very capable against Orcs and Ogres, but are likely to be at risk if travelling (say) in the Lower Planes, or trying to confront a lich or a vampire. In 4e D&D this is around the top of Heroic or low Paragon tier (in the 4e MM, a Vampire is 11th level and a Lich is 14th level).

 

[pemerton]

Feeling high level isn't just about how much damage one can put out as a player.

But . . . but . . . my vorpal longsword goes to 11.

 

[pemerton]

Further to post 1068:

This suggests a rough ratio of 3:2. That is, 7th level AD&D = 10th to 11th level 4e; 12th to 13th level AD&D = 18th to 19th level 4e; etc.

But that is only rough: it gives us 20th level AD&D = 30th level 4e, but the fiction of 20th level AD&D is not very well defined/established, and so is pretty hard to compare with 4e, where the PCs are clearly established as demigods or similar.

For instance, here's an epic destiny that would be a good fit for a Rogue/Thief; it's from Martial Power:

Dark Wanderer
You left home ages ago, saying goodbye to the comforts that a simpler life might have held. Following an unspoken yearning, you took to the road with other vagabonds. Your way led along sinister paths and to fateful deeds. In time, perhaps you and your companions came to be called heroes. Still, dark strands of fortune draw you onward to an unknown end. Until that end comes, you wander the world as a shadowy presence, turning up where you’re least expected or most needed. . . .

Dark Wanderer Features
Not My Destiny (21st level): Any creature of your level or lower that hits you takes a –4 penalty to attack rolls against you until the end of the encounter.

Dark Road (24th level): You can walk to any destination you desire in a single, uninterrupted 24-hour period of walking. No matter how distant the location, or how many planes separate you from it, you reach the destination 24 hours after you begin, finding shortcuts, portals, or other modes of transport previously unknown to you. You do not require any rest, food, or water during this travel, except to recharge powers and regain healing surges. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers.

When choosing a destination, you must be specific. If your destination is within a structure, such as a particular room within a castle, the long walk leads you to the structure’s main entrance, not inside the structure.

You can choose to be accompanied by a number of characters equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier, all of whom share the benefit of this class feature.

Long Walk Back (30th level): If you die and are not returned to life within 12 hours, your body and possessions disappear. Twelve hours after that - 24 hours after your death - you arrive, equipped as you were when you died, having just walked back from wherever it is you and your DM decided you awoke after you were slain. Your condition is the same as if you had been subject to a Raise Dead ritual, but without any death penalty.

You can choose to arrive at the place of your death, at the location of any of your allies, or at any location you consider home. There’s a final purpose in your existence, and it’s not random death.​

There's no analogue to this in AD&D.