D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Lanefan]

... mudflation style bags of hp clad in tissue paper. ...

Apropos of nothing else, this is the best line I've seen today!

 

[Zardnaar]

Apropos of nothing else, this is the best line I've seen today!

Yup its a good one.

 

[pemerton]

They can't be, can they? Didn't he claim they never made it to that level? Of the two people discussing high level 4e, only one actually has experience with the game at that level...

I guess when you put it like that . . .

I also think there may be a failure to have regard to all the complex build elements of a 4e PC, and the (many) ways in which they interact. And that's before we get to party synergies.

It is a very intricate game.

 

[Zardnaar]

I guess when you put it like that . . .

You dont need to play it when its right there in black and white. Go read the 4E phb level 15-19 powers and compare them to 5E spells.

They're roughly 3rd level. Hit points are similar in monsters, 4E MM creatures lack damage.

Hence complaints about 4E combat taking a long time. 5E ramped up damage a lot.

Modified by whatever paragon tier gives you (usually weaker than 5E class ability). And most of it is low damage+rider.

Magic items as well but the design paradigm is to different in that regard.

 

[pemerton]

You dont need to play it when its right there in black and white. Go read the 4E phb level 15-19 powers and compare them to 5E spells.

They're roughly 3rd level. Hit points are similar in monsters, 4E MM creatures lack damage.

Hence complaints about 4E combat taking a long time. 5E ramped up damage a lot.

I've posted examples, which you seem to be ignoring.

A high epic tier fighter can do 600 hp of the damage to the tarrasque in one round. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D. A high epic tier invoker can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D.

I already commented on the 19th level wizard spells, and explained why they are not the same as 3rd level spells in 5e. The differences become even more marked when regard is had to the other differences between 4e and 5e. A 3rd level fireball in 5e does an average of 28 hp of damage before saves. An Ogre has 59 hp. Even a 20th level wizard's fireball won't eliminate a group of ogres. In 4e D&D, when a 19th level wizard encounters Ogres, it's likely that at least some of them are minions. On a hit, any damage will defeat them. As will auto-damage. And a horde of Ogres, statted as a swarm, will take extra damage from an AoE attack.

Here is a 9th level 5e AoE control spell, Weird:

You try to create illusory terrors in others’ minds. Each creature of your choice in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point within range makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 10d10 Psychic damage and has the Frightened condition for the duration. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage only.

A Frightened target makes a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it takes 5d10 Psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends on that target.​

In 4e terms, that is something like this:

Area burst 5 in 20

Hit: 4d10 + INT psychic damage and ongoing 20 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both). First failed save: ongoing 50 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both).

Miss: Half damage.​

Frightened, in 4 terms, is something like Has -5 to attacks, skill checks and ability checks, and cannot move closer to the caster.

That's not a bad control effect. But the only respect in which it's obviously better than Evard's Black Tentacles is that it does more damage. The fact that wizards in 4e are not big damage dealers is a design feature. The Sorcerer in my 4e game did not feel like an underperformer in the damage department, with an average of 60+ hp of damage at-will AoE attack at the top of epic.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've posted examples, which you seem to be ignoring.

A high epic tier fighter can do 600 hp of the damage to the tarrasque in one round. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D. A high epic tier invoker can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D.

I already commented on the 19th level wizard spells, and explained why they are not the same as 3rd level spells in 5e. The differences become even more marked when regard is had to the other differences between 4e and 5e. A 3rd level fireball in 5e does an average of 28 hp of damage before saves. An Ogre has 59 hp. Even a 20th level wizard's fireball won't eliminate a group of ogres. In 4e D&D, when a 19th level wizard encounters Ogres, it's likely that at least some of them are minions. On a hit, any damage will defeat them. As will auto-damage. And a horde of Ogres, statted as a swarm, will take extra damage from an AoE attack.

Here is a 9th level 5e AoE control spell, Weird:

You try to create illusory terrors in others’ minds. Each creature of your choice in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point within range makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 10d10 Psychic damage and has the Frightened condition for the duration. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage only.

A Frightened target makes a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it takes 5d10 Psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends on that target.​

In 4e terms, that is something like this:

Area burst 5 in 20

Hit: 4d10 + INT psychic damage and ongoing 20 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both). First failed save: ongoing 50 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both).

Miss: Half damage.​

Frightened, in 4 terms, is something like Has -5 to attacks, skill checks and ability checks, and cannot move closer to the caster.

That's not a bad control effect. But the only respect in which it's obviously better than Evard's Black Tentacles is that it does more damage. The fact that wizards in 4e are not big damage dealers is a design feature. The Sorcerer in my 4e game did not feel like an underperformer in the damage department, with an average of 60+ hp of damage at-will AoE attack at the top of epic.

I didn't say 5th level was equivalent to a epic character. I said the level 19 spells are roughly equivalent to a 3rd level spell.

That's not what people are thinking of if youre playing high level. It feels completely fake for high level. Same with minions.

The epic 4E level 29 powers are roughly equivalent to 5th maybe 6th level spells.

My original claim was 4E essentially stretched out level 3-10 over 30 levels. You can see it right there in the phb in black and white. Check those wizard powers out.

You get paragon and epic ability which is roughly equivalent to a 5E class ability and epic boon or two. 4E power design was why the game was so grindy. They had to slow things down to make concept work. Once again it feels fake. Meteor Swarm 8d6 damage level 29. 5E 40d6 and its not even one of the power spells.

5Es power level is also why the game starts to fall apart level 13 I'll also admit that. You can make it work but fun/effort ratio is off ymmv.