How to TPK

[GMMichael]

I've been reading the thread about avoiding encounters that are too easy or that result in a Total Party Kill (TPK), and I just gave some XP for a poster pointing out that horror games are supposed to end in TPK. So now I'm wondering about the middle ground: when a TPK is expected to happen in a non-horror game.

And no, this isn't about making encounters difficult enough to defeat all the PCs. I think that subject was covered back in GMing 101.

I want to know things like:

• What do players of dead PCs do while waiting for the rest of the party to die?
• If your plot calls for TPK, do you ask permission first and ruin the surprise?
• WWMD (Matt Merville)?

 

[RenleyRenfield]

I think this is largely a 'adventure game' or 'wargame rpg' issue.

TPK in Monster Hearts or Apocalypse Keys or Outgunned is baked deeply and highly obvious to all players and plot. It's like... this is the game and death is part of things.

Mork Borg may bridge that with its Apocalypse roll, where survival is more about making your mark, and less about forever-questing = since the world blows up no matter what.

So I think this is very very game dependent as "not relevant at all" in some cases.

Looking at DrawSteel and Cosmere and other more 'adventure' leaning games, maybe even RuneQuest to a degree... character death is fine, but not like... a thing you suffer at random because a GM made a wrong-headed encounter. So i think you fudge and or tweak as needed to keep the game going. And do better due-diligence at balancing fights if that matters.

Heck, look at most online plays, people play out an adventure and the difficulty of an encounter is managed by the GM, sometimes in real time (adding reinforcements if easy, having enemy flee if too hard, or bringing to a negotiation if opposition has motivations)

If you are playing a wargame rpg like D&D and PF2e, then ... I would hope players know that as being part of the game-play agreements. its meant to be the risk of fun.

I will be honest, i have never had players whine or complain about a "too easy" combat. ...
...

Myself, its about the story.

Is this a cool spot for everyone to die that heightens the world? (like Rogue One movie)
Is this the right moment for all or some death of PCs?

if i am running a game that character death is not a main part of play, then yeah, I let it fall to the player's hand.

....

Wat do when character die and game goes on? When its Not a TPK, its just one PC, again, why? if it was "out in a blaze of glory" then always bask in the glory and then after game we talk new character or drop and join next game. if it was a game where rules dictate easy character death, we talk other character or drop next game... I guess that's the answer for me, lol.

If everyone, well... game is over, plot won. Now what does it mean to create new characters or try new game altogether?

....

Side note:
I ran a game where session 1, everyone started out with mega stats, powers, items, etc. The villain TPK the whole party. They wake up in special infirmary, weak. And now the plot was to regain all their power and stuff and get revenge. It was fun, but a real kick in the willy for a session1 game!

 

[payn]

I want to know things like:

• What do players of dead PCs do while waiting for the rest of the party to die?

If we know its a TPK as foregone conclusion then sit back and enjoy the show.

• If your plot calls for TPK, do you ask permission first and ruin the surprise?

Yeesh, I dont like running stuff like this. If there is gonna be some "everybody died but the story continues..." contrivance id make that the beginning of the campaign and known. This isnt the type of surprise I like sprung on me. YMMV.

• WWMD (Matt Merville)?

No idea.

 

[Gorgon Zee]

I've been reading the thread about avoiding encounters that are too easy or that result in a Total Party Kill (TPK), and I just gave some XP for a poster pointing out that horror games are supposed to end in TPK. So now I'm wondering about the middle ground: when a TPK is expected to happen in a non-horror game.

And no, this isn't about making encounters difficult enough to defeat all the PCs. I think that subject was covered back in GMing 101.

I want to know things like:

• What do players of dead PCs do while waiting for the rest of the party to die?
• If your plot calls for TPK, do you ask permission first and ruin the surprise?

So, I have been running the GREAT PENDRAGON CAMPAIGN, currently at around session 50 or so. In about 7 sessions we will have the battle of Camlann, in which Arthur, most of the round table knights, and all my player knights, will die.

It's one of the only two events that I told my players from the first session would be plot-immune: Arthur will be crowned King of Logres, and will die at Camlann. For your questions:

What do players of dead PCs do while waiting for the rest of the party to die?
Cheer on the remaining players to see who can survive the longest; take a restroom break; get a beer from the fridge. Pretty much the same sort of thing when they are not in a scene being played out, but probably with more interest!

If your plot calls for TPK, do you ask permission first and ruin the surprise?
Way to bias the question! In my experience, surprise TPKs are not what people play RPGs for. The goal of any tightly-plotted encounter (like a plotted TPK) must be to explore how the characters feel/behave/react, so hiding the fact that they are going to die takes away the players' ability to tell their characters' story well. My feeling would be that if a plot calls for a TPK, you should always tell the players so the surprise will not ruin the session (unless this is a one-shot or other low-investment session).

 

[overgeeked]

a poster pointing out that horror games are supposed to end in TPK.

That’s not how that works. It’s a common myth people have about horror games when they don’t play horror games.

 

[Brendan Byrd]

I want to know things like:

• What do players of dead PCs do while waiting for the rest of the party to die?

I haven't encountered this yet.
WWID: If done in bad faith in a high-investment game? Pick up my stuff and leave. Game over.

• If your plot calls for TPK, do you ask permission first and ruin the surprise?

Not all surprises are good.
Some people hate negative "surprises" like this.

In my opinion: a plotted TPK shouldn't be a surprise to the players. If there was no in game foreshadowing, I'm of the opinion that the plot is faulty. If there are no exit points for the characters along the way, it's a railroad to oblivion. If that's the genre, and the players like it, enjoy the ride.

Session 0 better be solid.
Make sure the genre, and what that includes is explained.
---
If you're playing:

• DCC: expect losses
• A campaign titled "Raging to Valhalla"? Expect your fallen heros to be rewarded with feasting and recreational violence in their afterlife.

• WWMD (Matt Merville)?

No idea.
---

Here is my question:
How do you frame a planned TPK as a reward for playing a TTRPG?

 

[aco175]

A long time ago I played in or might be misremembering and my brother played in a convention game where you were told to bring 3 PCs since some were going to die. It turned out to be a bit slapdash and everyone was dying. all the spare PCs were placed upside-down and the player just picked on and went with it. One player was going for the record in number of deaths and another managed to stay alive to the end encounter.

I think if the point is to TPK, then knowing that this is likely going to be is better than thinking the DM is forcing something and just trying to kill everyone.

 

[bloodtide]

I want to know things like:

• What do players of dead PCs do while waiting for the rest of the party to die?

In a lot of cases the group will be more then just the PCs, so such a player can take control of an NPC, animal companion, familiar, mount, or other such thing.

Some times, I will have a player take control of a bad guy, for or monster.

For more fun, have the PC stick around as a ghost or other such undead.

Having a PC 'ghost' that sticks around and can possess others can be fun. The player can leap from body to body and try to do things.

• If your plot calls for TPK, do you ask permission first and ruin the surprise?

No, never. I would never ask for permission for anything.

 

[Umbran]

... I just gave some XP for a poster pointing out that horror games are supposed to end in TPK.

There are some (like "10 Candles") that start with that premise, I feel that this is broadly incorrect. Horror can end in a TPK, but it isn't "supposed to".

So now I'm wondering about the middle ground: when a TPK is expected to happen in a non-horror game.

Before you ask about how you do this successfully, you probably want to ask why you would want to do this. Because that why should inform the how.

For example, one reason to intentionally have a TPK is basically a cinematic invocation of the Worf Effect - you have one party decimated on screen, to telegraph to the players how scary the bad guy is so that when the real PCs get rolling, they don't go head-first at the BBEG. This will be fundamentally different from a campaign ending TPK, so your techniques can/should be different.

I want to know things like:

• What do players of dead PCs do while waiting for the rest of the party to die?

There are some generic answers to this, but depending on why you are having this event, you may be able to design into the scenario some things that can be built into the scenario to keep those players engaged.

Just as a most basic idea: What if, alongside the battle in the living world, there's something happening in the spirit world that the PCs cannot influence until they die?

• If your plot calls for TPK, do you ask permission first and ruin the surprise?

I am most often of the school, "Screw with the Characters, not the Players." I prefer the players to have some idea of the risk they are going into, whether it be from an out-of-game discussion, or heavy telegraphing in-game of the threat. If everyone dies, nobody should be surprised by the result. It should be a choice they willingly make.

• WWMD (Matt Merville)?

Meaning Matt Mercer/Colville? I'm not sure. Why not ask them? This seems like the kind of thing Colville would cover in a video....

 

[Gorgon Zee]

There are some (like "10 Candles") that start with that premise, I feel that this is broadly incorrect. Horror can end in a TPK, but it isn't "supposed to".

I'll amplify this a bit. Not only is it not a requirement, but it can also be a simplistic or even lazy way to end a story. I feel that the best form of horror is when you could have succeeded, but failed to. Or you survive at a cost that is so high that death would have been preferable. I have had one CoC campaign end with nearly all the characters surviving, and realizing that to save the world, they would have to supply victims to be sacrificed to ward of the ancient evil continuously for the rest of their lives, and to recruit others to do so in the future. The player whose character died just before this felt they had the better outcome ...