D&D 5E (2024) Strategies and Tactics Barbarian (2024)

[FrogReaver]

Meh, strategy-wise this plays out pretty differently in my group. If discussion of strategy here. I've never loved the "kill the enemy faster" retort. I get it, but: In my playgroup, there is no "healthbars" for you to take this gamble, only announcement of if the creature is bloodied, otherwise qualitative descriptions. I see the argument for Wildheart opening up different barbarian strategy.... That being said, I love the self-healing Zealot, one of the most rounded self-sufficient barbs.

Right, I think zealot is very good, but I’m just not that excited to play one.

 

[mellored]

Right, I think zealot is very good, but I’m just not that excited to play one.

Agreed.

Dead enemies deal less damage, but they are also less fun to play with.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok. I'm not sure "you have advantage on attacks against enemies who are exactly 80 away at the start of your turn" is a good feature.

The whole range band effectively lengthens by your move speed on the Wildheart. Melee range is extended 30-40 ft. Normal Range of ranged/thrown weapons is extended 30-40 ft. Long range of ranged/thrown weapons is extended 30-40 ft.

Given the nature of javelins, this means that anything more than 30 ft range breaks down to (pre level 5)

30-60 ft, Wildheart uses greatsword while zealot uses javelin.

60-90 ft Wildheart throws javelin normally while zealot throws with disadvantage (or with advantage and normally is reckless attacking).

150-180 ft, Wildheart throws a javelin while zealot cannot.

In any of these bands the Wildheart performs as well or better than the zealot for damage. (Level 3 being a sole exception where he’s down by a single damage in the 30-60 ft range).

It's tied at level 4.
2d6+ proficiency (2)
2d6+ half level (2)

Yes, thus agreeing with my statement that the zealot in that situation isn’t better at level 4.

Any turn Wild Heart used PAM, the Zealot also uses PAM.

I assume you mean the bonus action attack instead of the reaction one, because it’s clear the better ability of the wildheart to position will set up the reaction PAM attack more often.

I agree that oftentimes the zealot will also be able to make the bonus action PAM attack when the Wildheart does, however, prior turn positioning and speed can mean the Wildheart is in regular move range this turn while the zealot is still not. This is especially important when the priority target is a target that doesn’t want to close the distance to the barbarian. Say a back line caster or an enemy rushing past the barbarian toward the party bard.

1.5 damage more than the Zealot.

2d6+2d6
Vs
2d6+1d6+2.

Looks like you forgot GWM.

So to combine everything, the feature would be....
"you have advantage on attacks against enemies who are exactly 75 or 80 away at the start of your turn.

That’s simply untrue and it really makes me question whether you can remain unbiased on the topic at all.

If you start your turn next to a different enemy, the range is changed from 30' to 80'"
Vs
"+1d6+half level damage and extra health"

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Again, I think wild heart can be better in the right party. But Zealot is just better in more situations.

When you are not even granting the Wildheart all the situations he’s better at than the zealot, then it seems obvious why your conclusion on the matter is flawed.

 

[FrogReaver]

Agreed.

Dead enemies deal less damage, but they are also less fun to play with.

I didn’t say I think the wildheart is worse either.

 

[mellored]

The whole range band effectively lengthens by your move speed on the Wildheart. Melee range is extended 30-40 ft. Normal Range of ranged/thrown weapons is extended 30-40 ft. Long range of ranged/thrown weapons is extended 30-40 ft.

Given the nature of javelins, this means that anything more than 30 ft range breaks down to (pre level 5)

30-60 ft, Wildheart uses greatsword while zealot uses javelin.

60-90 ft Wildheart throws javelin normally while zealot throws with disadvantage (or with advantage and normally is reckless attacking).

150-180 ft, Wildheart throws a javelin while zealot cannot.

And zealot adds damage to a longbow from 180-600'.
But that won't come very up often.

Yes, thus agreeing with my statement that the zealot in that situation isn’t better at level 4.

Right. Same in that situation.
And Zealot is better in every other situation.

I assume you mean the bonus action attack instead of the reaction one, because it’s clear the better ability of the wildheart to position will set up the reaction PAM attack more often.

True-ish. If your using the bonus action to setup the attack, the Zealot can probably use their bonus action for d4 attack.

Also I took Charger on my Wild Heart. Quite fun.

That’s simply untrue and it really makes me question whether you can remain unbiased on the topic at all.

You just said the same thing above.

If at the start of your turn the enemy is at a specific range Zealot is attacking normally and wild heart has advantage.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Same thing you did.

When you are not even granting the Wildheart all the situations he’s better at than the zealot, then it seems obvious why your conclusion on the matter is flawed.

Wild Heart is great when using Charger and a pike to push someone into Web. I said that a few pages ago. But that is dependant on someone else casting web.

They are also great if everyone else in the party can range attack and move back. But that's also dependant on the party.

They can also go wolf and be great boosting a melee party. But that requires a melee party.


Zealot isn't dependant on party tactics, or on being at a specific range to a specific target, or anything else.

Random Allies
Zelot: A
Wild Heart: C

Coordinated Allies.
Wild Heart: A
Zealot: B

 

[FrogReaver]

And zealot adds damage to a longbow from 180-600'.
But that won't come very up often.

Yes, but ranges from 30-180 do come up quite often.

Right. Same in that situation.
And Zealot is better in every other situation.

You mean the within 30 ft range situation? Zealot will do more damage in that position, I agree.

As an example scenario, Zealot will do less damage to a potentially more important backline targets. Zealot will also take more damage in getting to those targets.

So I don’t agree with the every other situation part at all.

True-ish. If your using the bonus action to setup the attack, the Zealot can probably use their bonus action for d4 attack.

I don’t think so. How do you figure?

If at the start of your turn the enemy is at a specific range Zealot is attacking normally and wild heart has advantage.

Not a specific range, at a wide band of ranges you have various DPR benefits over the zealot.

Wild Heart is great when using Charger and a pike to push someone into Web. I said that a few pages ago. But that is dependant on someone else casting web.

They are also great if everyone else in the party can range attack and move back. But that's also dependant on the party.

Wildheart can obviously be better in the right party, but that doesn’t mean he’s worse than zealot in a random party either.

They can also go wolf and be great boosting a melee party. But that requires a melee party.

Advantage is so common now I don’t rate wolf very highly anymore.

Zealot isn't dependant on party tactics, or on being at a specific range to a specific target, or anything else.

That makes him easier to white room. That doesn’t make him better.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Yes, but ranges from 30-180 do come up quite often.

You mean the within 30 ft range situation? Zealot will do more damage in that position, I agree.

As an example scenario, Zealot will do less damage to a potentially more important backline targets. Zealot will also take more damage in getting to those targets.

So I don’t agree with the every other situation part at all.


I don’t think so. How do you figure?

Not a specific range, at a wide band of ranges you have various DPR benefits over the zealot.

Wildheart can obviously be better in the right party, but that doesn’t mean he’s worse than zealot in a random party either.


Advantage is so common now I don’t rate wolf very highly anymore.

That makes him easier to white room. That doesn’t make him better.

Yeah, IMO, Zealot is more self-sufficient.. just generic healing at bonus speed can do that.... but strategy between the 2 is wholly different debate than "better at Dmg and durability in low-variance combat"

You start throwing: climbing, swimming, magic users behind blockades, diversified combat situations, that will be where a Wildheart, mobility strategy will excel... there is nothing saying, for example that enemy spellcasters can't do their thing and use their own bonus action for complete cover.. making a ranged party lame... but the Wildheart probably gets to that problem and tears a new one. Certainly the zealot will excel against a lazy blank room combat DM's encounters

 

[mellored]

Yes, but ranges from 30-180 do come up quite often.

You mean the within 30 ft range situation? Zealot will do more damage in that position, I agree

Less than 30' Zealot wins
30-60, tied, depending on exact level and feats.
60+, Wild Heart wins.

in my experience, the majority of combats take place within 60'.

As an example scenario, Zealot will do less damage to a potentially more important backline targets. Zealot will also take more damage in getting to those targets.

How many opportunity attacks are you expecting Zealot to take?

Assuming a CR 5 eath elemental, 17 AC, and you didn't recklessly attack yet.

55% * 14 damage /2 (rage)= 3.85 damage per OA.
The Zealot can heal for 4d12 = 26
26 / 3.85 = 6.75

So if it's 7 or less OA's per day, the Zealot comes out ahead.

Rage makes all barbarians decent at taking OAs.

Wildheart can obviously be better in the right party, but that doesn’t mean he’s worse than zealot in a random party either.

Well, depends on the random party.

Advantage is so common now I don’t rate wolf very highly anymore.

True. But if you reliably give it out, other people can focus on other things.
I.e. Sap instead of Vex.
Or summons.

Also, Bear can work well if you have a party of Fireball obsessed casters.

I'm giving points for Wild Heart is they can adapt to different parties. They can do more than just dash.