D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Oh, don't even get me started on "themed spell lists".

I ran a 1-20 level campaign with a shadow sorcerer...and guess what? Sorcerers don't get shadow spells. That character felt soooo shadowy every time she cast polymorph or meteor swarm. [Facepalm]

I am almost literally dying for D&D to have themed spell lists, but it would require a major overhaul to the system.

At a minimum, don't publish any subclasses where the mechanics can't support the flavor. Shadow magic is awesome, but it requires, yeah, having actual shadow magic available.

 

[James Gasik]

Oh, don't even get me started on "themed spell lists".

I ran a 1-20 level campaign with a shadow sorcerer...and guess what? Sorcerers don't get shadow spells. That character felt soooo shadowy every time she cast polymorph or meteor swarm. [Facepalm]

I am almost literally dying for D&D to have themed spell lists, but it would require a major overhaul to the system.

Themed spell lists are one of the many reasons why I love Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard.

You can do it, Mike!

You can do a lot of this with changing the appearance of spells or asking the DM to swap damage types (within reason- I don't see a big deal with a Frost Sphere over a Fireball, but a Sun Sphere or Thunderball might be a bit much). Even Hold Person could be momentarily freezing someone in a sheet of ice, etc. etc..

I've long wondered why D&D doesn't often support rules that let you do this without needing specialized subclasses/feats, whathave you, and the best I've come up with is it's about the IP. We expect to see spells like Burning Hands, Lightning Bolt, and Cone of Cold. If suddenly everyone was using Frost Fingers, Darkening Bolt, and Cone of Flame, maybe there would be a sense that you were playing a different game? That wouldn't bother me, but I know some people have strong feelings about "what D&D is/should be".

However, what really becomes an issue is what happens when you do have someone willing to try and be a specialist. In my Tales of the Valiant game, I have a Sorcerer who insists he's an Ice Sorcerer, using Metamagic to convert all of his spells to cold. This has caused issues when we fight things resistant to cold or vulnerable to the native element of a spell (like when we fought a monster vulnerable to fire, for example). He doesn't want to let go of his concept, even if it would be advantageous for him to do so, but this results in some fights where he starts plinking at enemies, not with magic, but a crossbow!

 

[Kannik]

And the thing was, there was a way for the 4e Wizard to swap out their spells, to keep the "prepared spells" flavor. Unfortunately it was tied to Tome Wizards, and most everyone wanted to use implements with mechanical benefits, like the Orb of Imposition to penalize saves.

You only need the Tome as your specialty if you wanted to have a bit of flexibility with your Encounter powers. In 4e the base Wizard can select 2 Daily powers and 2 Utility powers for each level and can choose one at the start of each day. Keeps a lot of the classic Wizard flavour without becoming a ream of continual options.

 

[Mort]

Especially since when fans get experience and become veterans, they tend to start campaigns at higher levels or speedrun low levels.

Right!

Sadly, I'm the only DM in my group willing to start (or even run, really) above level 10, so I have TONS of experience DMing above 10 but very little experience playing above level 10 much less tier 4.

One of my players has volunteered to run a game starting at level 18 and I'm super excited. Only problem is I have SO MANY classes/concepts I want to try - settling on one is going to be tough.

 

[James Gasik]

You only need the Tome as your specialty if you wanted to have a bit of flexibility with your Encounter powers. In 4e the base Wizard can select 2 Daily powers and 2 Utility powers for each level and can choose one at the start of each day. Keeps a lot of the classic Wizard flavour without becoming a ream of continual options.

Oh, thank you, it's been awhile, apparently. I vaguely recalled a discussion I had with a friend about a Deva Wizard who used the Tome, because Deva had a Feat that allowed them to know even more spells- the idea was to have a Wizard who would always have the right spell for the job. However, after playing it a few times, it became apparent that 4e really didn't require that level of versatility, and most of the time, using your best in slot spell was perfectly cromulent- ie, a hammer would do in most situations, even if you had a scalpel on hand.

 

[James Gasik]

Right!

Sadly, I'm the only DM in my group willing to start (or even run, really) above level 10, so I have TONS of experience DMing above 10 but very little experience playing above level 10 much less tier 4.

One of my players has volunteered to run a game starting at level 18 and I'm super excited. Only problem is I have SO MANY classes/concepts I want to try - settling on one is going to be tough.

My last game, I started everyone at level 3, and some of the players were having trouble keeping track of their abilities! Apparently some people need a slow drip of new things to do in order to acclimate themselves.

 

[Scribe]

SHADOWDARK STRIKES AGAIN

At this point, I hope that's just known. Shadowdark solves so many 5e problems.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

At this point, I hope that's just known. Shadowdark solves so many 5e problems.

There are current threads where people are inadvertently reinventing Shadowdark, so I don't think it's a known thing yet.

 

[CreamCloud0]

You can do a lot of this with changing the appearance of spells or asking the DM to swap damage types (within reason- I don't see a big deal with a Frost Sphere over a Fireball, but a Sun Sphere or Thunderball might be a bit much). Even Hold Person could be momentarily freezing someone in a sheet of ice, etc. etc..

I've long wondered why D&D doesn't often support rules that let you do this without needing specialized subclasses/feats, whathave you, and the best I've come up with is it's about the IP. We expect to see spells like Burning Hands, Lightning Bolt, and Cone of Cold. If suddenly everyone was using Frost Fingers, Darkening Bolt, and Cone of Flame, maybe there would be a sense that you were playing a different game? That wouldn't bother me, but I know some people have strong feelings about "what D&D is/should be".

However, what really becomes an issue is what happens when you do have someone willing to try and be a specialist. In my Tales of the Valiant game, I have a Sorcerer who insists he's an Ice Sorcerer, using Metamagic to convert all of his spells to cold. This has caused issues when we fight things resistant to cold or vulnerable to the native element of a spell (like when we fought a monster vulnerable to fire, for example). He doesn't want to let go of his concept, even if it would be advantageous for him to do so, but this results in some fights where he starts plinking at enemies, not with magic, but a crossbow!

i think you could maybe put damage types on tiers of equivalent value, you can swap any fire or poison damage for each other, any fire, lightning cold or acid damage, and any psychic, radiant or necrotic damage, and maybe upcast by one spell level to access the next elemental tier above (it's free to 'downgrade' your damage type), so you could cast ice knife as fire, lighting or acid knife with a 1st level slot, or as psychic knife by casting it as a 2nd level spell.
(Edit: upcasting to alter damage type wouldn’t sacrifice any other benefits from upcasting)

 

[Tigris]

There are current threads where people are inadvertently reinventing Shadowdark, so I don't think it's a known thing yet.

Which is natural. Shadowdark is a 5E "but OSR" hack, so people who try to do the same thing, taking 5E and make it more like OSR, will come to the same result.