TSR On the Relative Merits of the TSR Editions

[Zardnaar]

Well in 1977 I bought my DMG for 20 dollars that would be 106 dollars in todays dollars. We are actually paying 1990 prices for books now if you adjust for inflation. That book in 1990 was about 30 dollars which would be 73 dollars.

But the problem with such a simple argument is 1. we had far less competition for dollars back then. For instance most people on the bottom half of the economy didn't have 2 to 4 streaming services they just got their TV over the air on antenna. People watched TV, read books, played games. Computers weren't in most households and most of the stuff you do on the internet didn't exist.

2. The median salary in 1970 was 9,400 dollars a year. That's 78,000 dollars in today's dollars year now. The median salary today is 45,000.

This creates the problem the game industry (and all entertainment and non essential spending) has with using inflation as a guide for price is that wages haven't kept pace with inflation since the mid to late 1970's and there are lot more competitors for people's extra dollars than back then. Thus the industry giving in and selling PDF's cheaper. It became a neccessity to survive not a choice.

I could easily make the logical argument that a 7.99 a month streaming service is the equivilant of 11 dollars back in 1970 and that if people would cancel 2 services they could afford a book a year or two pdf books a year. But how many people are going to give up a full year of streaming on two services to buy a game book? Especially one they can share with their DM? But then that was a problem back then as well.

I swud it varied. I dont gave figures for 1995.

Here 1997. Prices in potato dollars
Phb $45
Minimum Wage $7/hour

2026
Minimum Wage $23.50
PHB $75

Students its marginally cheaper, gap between median Wage and minimum is lower vs mid 90s.

So in pretty much every metric the PHB is cheaper now across the board.
However disposable income is likely lower due to rents and mortage not pegged to inflation.

If you own a house outright (no rent or mortgage) phb is very cheap.

Locally real cost is same as 1990's if you're not on welfare. Higher CoL area its probably not. It depends on Minimum, median, average wage, personal situation etc.

Alot don't have disposable money to buy the books to begin with or the time, inclination or education to play.

I did say its still mostly a middle class hobby. Is not just income levels.

Store I play out has thousands of tokens, 2 sets of core books, dice and the starter set for people to use. I paid $30 a year which gets me free/cheap drinks, access to paint station, priority table bookings and we will provide material if needed. Price isnt only issue.

 

[nevin]

While that is true, the stagnation of wages is not really the game companies issue: if they make the same product, and charge the adjusted same price...that is a broader issue than the publisher.

I"d argue that stagnation of wages is a universal issue and it's definitely an issue for all retail companies. Less people with money is a problem for any company that sells to a broad market. Now if D&D only sold to rich people I'd accept your statement. But they sell to everyone so it is their issue. Now if you are saying they can't fix the issue yes that is true. But they still have to adjust thier strategy for the fact that they may never be able to sell thier products for the same level of profits they sold for in 1977

 

[Zardnaar]

I"d argue that stagnation of wages is a universal issue and it's definitely an issue for all retail companies. Less people with money is a problem for any company that sells to a broad market. Now if D&D only sold to rich people I'd accept your statement. But they sell to everyone so it is their issue. Now if you are saying they can't fix the issue yes that is true. But they still have to adjust thier strategy for the fact that they may never be able to sell thier products for the same level of profits they sold for in 1977

Here its not stagnation of wages but surging CoL.

If we had 1990s levels of rent/mortage wages would be great. Minimum wage has almost quadrupled, median wage tripled iirc.

Rent has also quadrupled however. Locally at least probably more.

Consuner goods even groceries aren't that bad adjusted people just look at the price and grumble. Most dont remember or cherrybpick 90s prices (they dont account for 90s wages).

 

[Parmandur]

I"d argue that stagnation of wages is a universal issue and it's definitely an issue for all retail companies. Less people with money is a problem for any company that sells to a broad market. Now if D&D only sold to rich people I'd accept your statement. But they sell to everyone so it is their issue. Now if you are saying they can't fix the issue yes that is true. But they still have to adjust thier strategy for the fact that they may never be able to sell thier products for the same level of profits they sold for in 1977

I mean, it seems that they have, though? If the cost is what it is, and it is selling better than ever...

It would be great if wages could un-stsgnate, but that is a different issue. RPG publishers selling the same product for the same relative amount, however, is reasonable, especially when they are doing well at the same time.

 

[nevin]

I swud it varied. I dont gave figures for 1995.

Here 1997. Prices in potato dollars
Phb $45
Minimum Wage $7/hour

2026
Minimum Wage $23.50
PHB $75

Students its marginally cheaper, gap between median Wage and minimum is lower vs mid 90s.

So in pretty much every metric the PHB is cheaper now across the board.
However disposable income is likely lower due to rents and mortage not pegged to inflation.

If you own a house outright (no rent or mortgage) phb is very cheap.

Locally real cost is same as 1990's if you're not on welfare. Higher CoL area its probably not. It depends on Minimum, median, average wage, personal situation etc.

Alot don't have disposable money to buy the books to begin with or the time, inclination or education to play.

I did say its still mostly a middle class hobby. Is not just income levels.

Store I play out has thousands of tokens, 2 sets of core books, dice and the starter set for people to use. I paid $30 a year which gets me free/cheap drinks, access to paint station, priority table bookings and we will provide material if needed. Price isnt only issue.

Wages haven't been pegged to inflation since the mid to late 70's either. Average spending power on the bottom 2/3rds of the world economy is about 35% less than it was in the 70's. So add that to your rents and mortgage not pegging to inflation. Insurance has been increasing across the board at about 3 times the rate of inflation for over a decade. So have Utilities.

Most of those stores like yours have gone out of business competing with amazon and because of utility and insurance prices making rent too expensive.

But yes it's always been a middle class hobby or at least required you have middle class friends who already have the books if you can't afford them. That's probably one reason older versions these days do so well. There's multiple versions of all kinds of RPG"s available for free online if you can't pay for the latest versions.

I think eventually Hasbro will have to go with a streaming style 10 bucks a month you get access to everything to keep D&D profitable.

 

[Parmandur]

I think eventually Hasbro will have to go with a streaming style 10 bucks a month you get access to everything to keep D&D profitable.

They already made the rules available online for free?

And I mean on Beyond, not the SRD.

 

[Zardnaar]

Wages haven't been pegged to inflation since the mid to late 70's either. Average spending power on the bottom 2/3rds of the world economy is about 35% less than it was in the 70's. So add that to your rents and mortgage not pegging to inflation. Insurance has been increasing across the board at about 3 times the rate of inflation for over a decade. So have Utilities.

Most of those stores like yours have gone out of business competing with amazon and because of utility and insurance prices making rent too expensive.

But yes it's always been a middle class hobby or at least required you have middle class friends who already have the books if you can't afford them. That's probably one reason older versions these days do so well. There's multiple versions of all kinds of RPG"s available for free online if you can't pay for the latest versions.

I think eventually Hasbro will have to go with a streaming style 10 bucks a month you get access to everything to keep D&D profitable.

I think theres a bit more going on than just cost.

 

[nevin]

I think theres a bit more going on than just cost.

that's fair.

 

[Jahydin]

AD&D 1e for me. Has all the races, classes, spells, and magic items that feel "core" to me; buffs PCs to make the dungeons more survivable by adding more HP and more lenient death mechanics; and better guidance on how the game should be run and the role of a Dungeon Master.

Although I dislike quite a lot of the mechanics, I've found that their specificity of what they're suppose to accomplish is such I can houserule my own takes that accomplish the same goal. For instance, giving certain weapons a bonus VS armor type instead of referencing a table.

 

[GreyLord]

Well in 1977 I bought my DMG for 20 dollars that would be 106 dollars in todays dollars. We are actually paying 1990 prices for books now if you adjust for inflation. That book in 1990 was about 30 dollars which would be 73 dollars.

It's been a long time and so my memory may not be clear, but I don't think the DMG came out until 1979 (78 at the earliest?). The PHB came out in 77 (I think) and I think I only paid $10 or $15 for it? Definately not $20.

2e was out in 1990, I bought my versions right when it came out...but I think the PHB and DMG both sold for 19.99 retail or $20. It's been awhile though.

But the problem with such a simple argument is 1. we had far less competition for dollars back then. For instance most people on the bottom half of the economy didn't have 2 to 4 streaming services they just got their TV over the air on antenna. People watched TV, read books, played games. Computers weren't in most households and most of the stuff you do on the internet didn't exist.

2. The median salary in 1970 was 9,400 dollars a year. That's 78,000 dollars in today's dollars year now. The median salary today is 45,000.

Great point. If we priced it in relation to real wages it may be different (is that around 2/3 of what people are saying the actual inflated price should be...so...$73 would actually be more like $50?).

This creates the problem the game industry (and all entertainment and non essential spending) has with using inflation as a guide for price is that wages haven't kept pace with inflation since the mid to late 1970's and there are lot more competitors for people's extra dollars than back then. Thus the industry giving in and selling PDF's cheaper. It became a neccessity to survive not a choice.

I could easily make the logical argument that a 7.99 a month streaming service is the equivilant of 11 dollars back in 1970 and that if people would cancel 2 services they could afford a book a year or two pdf books a year. But how many people are going to give up a full year of streaming on two services to buy a game book? Especially one they can share with their DM? But then that was a problem back then as well.

It's a hard thing to tackle I suppose and a difficult balancing act to try to do.