D&D 5E (2024) Changes to the Command spell and its use at the table.

[Reynard]

Magic that controls actions, like this does, does turn the character into something of an automaton: it has no choice but to do what it's been told to do.

The character or creature has to do the things, but they still have choice in how.

 

[Reynard]

Here is an example to chew on:

A BBEG casts command on a PC and the PC fails the save. the command is Flee. The PC is in a big open room, with a lava pit 25 feet away, a bottomless pit 15 feet away, and a open exit door 35 feet away.

Which way must the PC flee?

 

[Lanefan]

The character or creature has to do the things, but they still have choice in how.

Problem with that is it opens up all kinds of argument-causing avenues for players (and, by extension, DMs when it's cast on an NPC or monster) to try to mitigate or ignore the effect of the spell. We've already seen some examples of such in this thread.

Does "drop" mean I have to drop what I'm holding right at my feet or can I toss it to the ground in a more convenient location, for example tossing my highly-magical sword toward another warrior so she can pick it up and keep going?

Does "halt" mean I have to freeze in place or can I allow my momentum to carry me forward to where I was originally going anyway (e.g. if I'm running at full speed do I have to screech to a stop or can I slow down in a more natural jog-walk-stop sequence and maybe still get to where I'm going, only slower)?

We;ve already seen what some players might try when told to "flee".

Allowing choice in how to execute Command orders is just a big box of arguments waiting to happen.

 

[Lanefan]

Here is an example to chew on:

A BBEG casts command on a PC and the PC fails the save. the command is Flee. The PC is in a big open room, with a lava pit 25 feet away, a bottomless pit 15 feet away, and a open exit door 35 feet away.

Which way must the PC flee?

Of those three things, which is most directly away from the caster? As in, when the target turns its back on the caster, what is straight in front of it?

Also, are there open ways around the two pits if one is encountered while fleeing?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree with you here. Lava is not defined in 5E AFAIK. I've had DMs play with it being difficult terrain, I've had DMs play with it being like water and you could swim in it and I've had DMs say you could walk on it normally.

I've never had one rule that you got stuck, although that probably makes the most sense (more than swimming certainly) and if this is what Lava did at your table then one would not try to run through it.



Situationally possibly. It would have to meet a wierd combination of specific geometry and movement and you would need to be able to open the secret door as part of your move. If all those things were true then I guess yes. I've never seen that in play though.



"Fleeing" is not being commanded to Flee per the spell and a fall off a cliff will not kill most PCs. Fall damage is capped at 20d6.

There is nothing about safety in the 2024 spell. Not only this, that verbiage was actually removed, the 2014 version of that spell did have that caveat. They purposely removed it, if they wanted that to be a consideration they would have left it in there.

I think in some places the designers removed words just for the sake of it, not considering what they do.

Command is a powerful spell, but it is hardly OP compared to other 1st level spells. It is generally less powerful than Sleep and Tasha's Hideous Laughter. In some specific circumstances it is better than these two.



Like I said any PC with over 10hps has a "chance" to survive a fall from any height and any PC over 35 hps is probably going to survive that fall.




That is different than a spell commanding me to flee. If someone casts Hold Person can I choose not to be paralyzed because it is suicidal and only be paralyzed if it is safe to be so. What about being commanded to "Drop" my sword or "Grove" and go prone. These are generally far more dangerous in combat to most creatures than jumping off of a cliff. Can I choose not to do these too?

That is building a straw man. I am not speaking of those spells.

No but it makes me lose hit points, should I be able to avoid that if I fail a save and it is not safe to lose those hit points? I was not considering the push effect of thunderwave when I posted it, but shouldn't I be able to avoid that too if it is not safe?

see above.

The spell does not say it causes the target to ACTUALLTY flee. It doesn't say that anywhere in it. This is a fundamental difference between the 2014 version and the 2024 version.

The spell also does not say you should commit suicide. So as you said above, if survival is possible, jumoing does not sound like a bad idea.

How do you have experience with this when you don't allow the spell to be used this way?

I have a lot of game experience. And I have used spells in that way.

The claim is that push is more powerful in play for pushing people into things or off of heights and that is based on experience with push and the 2024 version of command. If you haven't allowed this to be done with command what is the experience you are basing this on?

see above.

How does being insane change that? Sane and insane people generally move in the same fashion.

I think you overreacted to my use of this word. The spell compells you to move away, so somehow your brain is not completely shut off.

Sure I agree with this. It is highly situational and not something I have seen personally (although I have seen jumping off of buildings). That underscores why it is not extremely powerful

Being highly situational does not mean it is not extremely powerful. Command is always useful. It takes away actions from multiple creatures if upcast.
But yeah, command is not the only problematic spell in that regard.

Teleport is not movement and requires an action. The spell specifies you spend your turn moving so they can not teleport or cast mistystep or cast Jump or Levitate or spider climb or do anything that requires an action or bonus action on their turn even if it gets them further away. Again they are not running away or "fleeing" as they would from a fire. They are doing what the spell compels, same as if it was sleep or hold person or whatever else.

It says, move away by any means. Now you are cherry picking, what it is allowed/forced and what not.

I can see why you draw that line and I do agree. But "by the fastest means available" is also open to interpretation.

Since the spell requires movement you can do anything normally done as part of movement, so:

In the secret door hypothetical above, they could open the secret door if it was something they could do as part of their movement, but not if it requires Utilize or something else (which depends on the specifics of the secret door).

Even if everything else would be true. No the spell does not help you going around invisible walls. At first you probably bump into it hurting yourself and then try to go around by touch...

They could move their Conjured Celestial to damage enemies or heal themselves and allies (done part of movement). If they run by an ally that ally could grapple them using an AOO/Unarmed strike and the person being commanded could purposely fail the save thereby stopping their movement at that point. If they know they are running off a cliff they could yell out for an ally to cast Feather Fall (they can't cast it themselves because that would be a reaction on their turn).

The AoO is neat. Yes. That helps a lot as you provoke AoO. Pushes do not.

So lets just assume we came to an agreement. I guess we laid out our arguments and neither will be swayed more than we already did.

 

[Reynard]

Of those three things, which is most directly away from the caster? As in, when the target turns its back on the caster, what is straight in front of it?

Who cares? That isn't a requirement of the spell.

Also, are there open ways around the two pits if one is encountered while fleeing?

Assume they represent the only options.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Most games don't allow one to cast a spell while running or sprinting, and as the spell says you have to "move" that probably rules out casting any spell, including teleport.

That said, if the target has a device of teleportation that can be activated while on the run it becomes a very open question as to whether the target has to use it.

And that said, if the fleeing is done in uncontrolled panic even a device won't help; you're too panic-ed to think of using it.

Misty step for example does not impede your ability to move if you are not a monk or a rogue.

by the way. Do monks need to spend their ki to move faster? Do orcs have to use adrenaline rush?
Do fighters have to spend an action point to gain another attack? And second wind to use tactical shift?

I think that is not crystal clear at all.

 

[Lanefan]

Who cares? That isn't a requirement of the spell.

Yes it is: you're to move away from the caster as best you can, and "as best you can" includes moving directly away rather than at an angle. If the caster's due south of you on a wide open field, you gotta flee due north; northeast or northwest won't do as the angle (and rudimentary geometry) say you're not moving away from the caster as best you can.

Assume they represent the only options.

If there's no way around one or both of the pits, and assuming the target can't jump or fly over said pit(s), then into a pit the target goes. If there is a way around the pits and a pit is directly away from the caster then the target would get to that pit then go around it, eventually reaching the door.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Of those three things, which is most directly away from the caster? As in, when the target turns its back on the caster, what is straight in front of it?

Also, are there open ways around the two pits if one is encountered while fleeing?

Fleeing does not actually forces you into a direction. Approach says something about the most direct route. Flee does not. So to cite @ECMO3 the designers purposefully left this out it seems.

It just says, move away by the fastest available means. So I could also interoret it as running away zigzag, but very fast.
I am fast. And I always move away. Certainly not in the spirit of the spell. But if we do things "literally"...

 

[Reynard]

Yes it is: you're to move away from the caster as best you can, and "as best you can" includes moving directly away rather than at an angle.

No. This is no implicit. This is you making a judgment unsupported by the text.