D&D General Summoner Thoughts (w/Rum)

[SkidAce]

Lots of the Conjure and Summon spells greatly increase the time a player takes for their turn.

As a randomly creative thought, which I tend to do a lot, I considered...what if the summons DID require your action to command (kinda what they are getting away from with the new summon spells).

In this case, summoning a single creature and controlling it would be your turn for the most part. Then I thought, druids turn into creatures and basically that's their turn (running the creature form).

So logically (illogically?) I could let a summoner bring forth CR level creatures similar in power to what a druid could turn into. Looking at those level of CRs available I realized nobody would want that (too weak). I looked at Moon druid, who wild shapes into CRs = level/3. Closer, but still a little weak.

Currently comparing summon CR = level/2 to other summons. Summon Demon is a 4th level spell, which you can cast at 7th level....and you get Cr 4 and 5 demons. But why calculate all that mess.

How about CR of summons is equal to level of spell used? But then you are back to the new Summon X versions that dont eat up your action, so why would you use my idea?

Here's the bottom line: I'm feeling there is a place for a summoner that gets stronger CR summons, but they use up the summoner's action (thematically maybe the summoner is piloting the summons like a familiar. But I'm chasing this idea and not sure its worth the effort.

Thoughts? (be kind, its just an idle thought experiment)

 

[SkidAce]

Hmmmm, I could just create a custom Summon Eidolon spell, similar to the new Summon spells, and allow it to be buffed in some fashion while using the caster's action.

Simpler, and less rambling in explanation.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yeah, I don't think it's worth the effort. IIRC the Summon spells are Concentration so the caster gets maximum 1 creature at a time. In addition, the rules don't even say that the caster must be given full control of summoned creatures as if they were the PC itself. The original 5e Conjure spells say that the creatures even have their own initiative, suggesting to me that the default is they are played by the DM, and the player only gives them general verbal commands. Animate spells instead required a bonus action on the PC's turn, which is clearly self-limiting. So the premise to "greatly increase the time a player takes for their turn" is a self-inflicted problem if you choose to let a player directly play summoned creatures, but even then since you seem to play 5.5e they shouldn't get more than 1 summon at a time.

I'd say, simply default to "DM controls summoned creatures", then feel free to give a player exceptional permission to control them as long as they are quick, but take it away as soon as it drags the game and their own fun is ruining other players fun.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

the Summon spells are Concentration so the caster gets maximum 1 creature at a time.

Fey Wanderer and GOO warlock (others?) can cast summons without concentration; Beastmasters, artificers etc can have permanent pets plus summons.

DM controls summoned creatures

The DM has enough to manage as it is. And the DM turns taking too long can also be boring for players.

But a big factor is the actual number of players. If there are 1-3 then summons are a great addition to Team PC, if there are 5+ then even one is a pain.

 

[Li Shenron]

The DM has enough to manage as it is. And the DM turns taking too long can also be boring for players.

But a big factor is the actual number of players. If there are 1-3 then summons are a great addition to Team PC, if there are 5+ then even one is a pain.

Ok so just ban summoning, or restrict it. There is no way to have both plenty of creatures in a combat and short combat rounds. You can shift action economy between players and DM, but if it's always boring then just don't play with summoners.

 

[aco175]

My group currently has a necromancer with 5 skeletons and a henchman, a cleric who leaves his henchman at home a lot, a fighter with a fighter henchman, a barbarian, and a druid who shapechanges a lot. Sometimes combat takes a long time. I defaulted to having all NPCs go at the end of combat to help.

I would say to just make them NPCs with a simple stat card but they are already a bit like this.
I'm note sure that players would like this if it means giving up my actions. Similar to the ranger and nobody taking that anymore.

 

[SkidAce]

Ok so just ban summoning, or restrict it. There is no way to have both plenty of creatures in a combat and short combat rounds. You can shift action economy between players and DM, but if it's always boring then just don't play with summoners.

My original premise is that; If the summoner controls the creature like a druid controls their wild shape, you have no change in the action economy. (i.e. summoner uses their action to control creature in place of other actions)

And then I tried to balance it.

Not positive the juice is worth the squeeze...might playtest with an NPC.

 

[TigerDude]

Most summons aren't very strong, the power is in "emanation" spells. Nerfing summons to make them burn your action every turn would mean no one would use them, probably wouldn't even waste a memorization on them. To compare them to Druids you need the druid concentration spell running as well.