Let's Talk About Core Game Mechanics

[Fenris-77]

Rolling the dice represents allowing the setting and its current state to make a decision involving risk and/or consequences. Since the roll is usually wrapped in specific diegetic trappings, I think its somewhat trivial to say that it does indeed represent something. An RPG die roll certainly isn't the same as a coin flip about dinner - that suggests that the roll doesn't matter, whereas in RPG terms rolls are only about things that matter (otherwise we wouldn't be rolling).

There are rolls that are simply randomizing in RPGs of course, but those aren't the rolls I'm talking about.

 

[pemerton]

Rolling the dice represents allowing the setting and its current state to make a decision involving risk and/or consequences. Since the roll is usually wrapped in specific diegetic trappings, I think its somewhat trivial to say that it does indeed represent something. An RPG die roll certainly isn't the same as a coin flip about dinner - that suggests that the roll doesn't matter, whereas in RPG terms rolls are only about things that matter (otherwise we wouldn't be rolling).

Huh? Why does comparing the roll of a die in a RPG to the toss of a coin imply that it doesn't matter? I don't follow that ostensible implication at all.

When you say that "the roll is usually wrapped in specific diegetic trappings", I assume you are referring to things like dice pools that are built by reference to aspects of the PC build or "modifiers that are applied by reference to the fictional state of affairs*. This doesn't make the roll itself representative.

For instance, in Burning Wheel, when my PC utters a prayer to try and relieve his other of her worries and burdens, the dice pool is built by reference to my PC's Faith attribute, and also (if I spend them) my spent Persona points. But this doesn't make the roll itself representational. The roll tells us whether or not my PC's prayer does indeed relieve his mother of her worries and burdens. But it doesn't represent anything. I mean, what would it represent?

 

[Fenris-77]

Huh? Why does comparing the roll of a die in a RPG to the toss of a coin imply that it doesn't matter? I don't follow that ostensible implication at all.

When you toss a coin to see where you're going for dinner the implication is that the result doesn't matter - you are randomizing between two equal choices (for some value of equal). Nothing about the example really applies to RPG play as far as I can see.

When you say that "the roll is usually wrapped in specific diegetic trappings", I assume you are referring to things like dice pools that are built by reference to aspects of the PC build or "modifiers that are applied by reference to the fictional state of affairs*. This doesn't make the roll itself representative.

No, I mean rolls made at the table during the course of the conversation, so mostly the rolls that accrue due to action declarations (as opposed to rolling on a random table). The very fact of the action declaration and scaffolding of difficulty and result based on diegetic circumstance makes it 'important' and pretty specific.

For instance, in Burning Wheel, when my PC utters a prayer to try and relieve his other of her worries and burdens, the dice pool is built by reference to my PC's Faith attribute, and also (if I spend them) my spent Persona points. But this doesn't make the roll itself representational. The roll tells us whether or not my PC's prayer does indeed relieve his mother of her worries and burdens. But it doesn't represent anything. I mean, what would it represent?

It represents chance and difficulties imposed by diegetic circumstance in cases where a given action is important to the character. In each case the action and its modifiers are a unit. The die roll represents the uneven hand of fate or the impersonal vicissitudes of circumstance (or whatever) - but always in a specific way impressed on a particular action. Taken one way it represents something that the player cares enough about to risk his character in order to achieve it (without the roll there is no real risk).

The use of dice to represent the element of fortune is pretty core to RPG play. I'm not sure what the juice is in trying to say that the roll is meaningless when it's pretty obviously not.

 

[mamba]

This is what I'm saying is not true in most of my RPGing. When characters fight; or when a character tries to pick a lock; there is something happening in the fiction. The roll of the dice doesn't represent that something. But it contributes to how we - the game participants - decide what is happening in the fiction.

huh? so the resolution mechanic meant to resolve what is going on in the fiction has nothing to do with what is going on in the fiction?

Then why are you using that mechanic for it, just because that is what the book says to do? Why did the book decide to use it? At some point there should have been someone who decided that this is a better representation than flipping a coin or rolling 1d6 with 4+ being a success…

It sounds like you are saying that as long as there is a result it does not matter how you got there / what the chances of success were or what the possible results are (tiers vs success/failure) and neither the game design nor the player should concern themselves with such things. That is very odd to me… why are you not simply tossing a coin then

 

[aramis erak]

This is what I'm saying is not true in most of my RPGing. When characters fight; or when a character tries to pick a lock; there is something happening in the fiction. The roll of the dice doesn't represent that something. But it contributes to how we - the game participants - decide what is happening in the fiction.

IME, Most players conflate the reason for the roll with the roll itself; they don't see them as separate in the way you're arguing for.

When the die itself is tied to the action or the weapon, your insistence of separation falls even further from the phronema of most players.

For example, in MHRP, one can in fact choose to color code one's dice so each die can be tracked for what it was generated by for narration of the outcome.
EG: I put in a red d8 for my solo score, a blue d8 for my "Shameless Glory Hound" distinction, a blue d10 for my Magic Sword, a red d6 for my shield, and a green d8 for my Melee specialty. Rolls (roll/sides) : 4/8 2/8 2/8 5/10 4/6 ... so my best dice are the Magic Sword at 5, and either the shield at 4 or the solo at 4... with the blue or the green d8 as my effect die.. so Swinging wildly, with the sword and shield, I show off immensely as I attack (with a 9 result and d8 effect). Each die in that case can be representative of specific elements in the fiction, and the choice of which to keep can be used to determine the narrative qualities of the success or failure.

Likewise, many simpler dice pools the dice can be said to represent some factor in building the pool; in VTM, for example, my roll to intimidate the puny guy might be Strength plus Intimidation, and if I can demonstrate it with a strength feat, possibly adding my Potence to the pool... and rolling them each on different colors can allow a nuanced read of the result... say, Str 4 in red, Intimidation 3 in Blue, and Potence 2 in green... and target Willpower 5: 9 7 3 10 9 8 1 9 8. We'll cancel that blue 8 for the blue 1.So 3s from strength, 1 net from skill, and 2 from potence... Note no open end on the 10 because no specialty used. breaking the chair with one arm and stepping into the personal space of the victim, "You will be just as easily broken if you don't coöperate," I say, as I flex...
While : 5 1 3 3 1 1 3 1 2. a botch... -3 successes... Attempting to break the chair, I lose my grip and send it clattering, the result clearly showing I'm off my game, and inspiring no fear at all... at least he knows I can one hand throw the chair...
Theoretically, an additional die for a suitable weapon might be added as well, and a fourth color to represent it.

Note that the idea of tracking which dice came from which source isn't my own; I got it from a forum post for VTM 1.0 very long ago. Don't recall if USENET or WWIVnet... or CIS...

The dice in those pools are there to represent those factors from the mechanics and having presence in the fiction. The distinction that the die itself isn't a representation of skill, it's purpose for being rolled is, and the purpose gives meaning to the dice.

(All rolls made using the FFG/Edge Genesys die roller for iPad on a Mac. Yes, it has normal dice.)

 

[Thomas Shey]

Tossing a coin has a reason: it could be indifference (as you suggest), or fairness, or (in Two Face's case) a profound commitment to randomness. But the tossing of a coin doesn't represent that reason.

And I simply disagree. I think it very much represents those reasons.

 

[Thomas Shey]

they represent something in the fiction, but they do not closely model anything in real life with the intent to simulate it.

Sure, but that's not what I suggested. I suggested that a big part of the reason for that is we're dealing with things we simply can't handle deterministically (again, barring just ignoring a whole lot, some of which on some level most people don't want to). I mean you can get into an argument about what "simulate" is being used for here, but that's always a problem with that word.

You cannot say that an attack roll obviously needs to be represented as a d20 roll while using thieves tools obviously has to be represented by a percentage, etc., and many games represent the same things in very different ways as a consequence.

The representation is decided by game design and goals rather than by the thing they are meant to represent

Yeah, remember all I was talking about in that post was the reason for having a randomizer at all in the process.

 

[pemerton]

When you toss a coin to see where you're going for dinner the implication is that the result doesn't matter - you are randomizing between two equal choices (for some value of equal).

Two friends are arguing about where to go for dinner. They toss a coin to resolve the dispute. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter - if it didn't matter, there'd be no disagreement because no one would care!

The very fact of the action declaration and scaffolding of difficulty and result based on diegetic circumstance makes it 'important' and pretty specific.

I don't know what the "it" is in this sentence.

It represents chance and difficulties imposed by diegetic circumstance in cases where a given action is important to the character.

<snip>

The die roll represents the uneven hand of fate or the impersonal vicissitudes of circumstance (or whatever)

This isn't true of Burning Wheel, or Torchbearer, or Marvel Heroic RP, or Prince Valiant, or Mythic Bastionland - just thinking of some of the RPGs I've played or thought about recently.

BW, TB2e and Prince Valiant use a difficulty/obstacle number to represent difficulty; not a die roll. Mythic Bastionland uses consequences to represent difficulty (eg doing this thing will cost you 1d6 Vigour; or, if you fail this save you will lose 1d10 Spirit). Marvel Heroic doesn't really represent difficulty at all - it represent opposition either in the form of a being (statted the same as a PC) or the current degree of threat/tension in the form of the Doom Pool.

Taken one way it represents something that the player cares enough about to risk his character in order to achieve it

This seems to me to describe an action, or a goal - that is the something for which the player takes a risk. The dice roll doesn't represent that. It's subsequent to that, and is a way of deciding whether or how the risk crystallises.

The use of dice to represent the element of fortune is pretty core to RPG play.

The dice don't represent the element of fortune. They are the element of fortune.

I'm not sure what the juice is in trying to say that the roll is meaningless when it's pretty obviously not.

Who said the roll is meaningless? Not me. I said it doesn't represent anything in the fiction. It's a decision procedure.

As Vincent Baker said, over two decades ago,

Roleplaying is negotiated imagination. In order for any thing to be true in game, all the participants in the game (players and GMs, if you've even got such things) have to understand and assent to it. When you're roleplaying, what you're doing is a) suggesting things that might be true in the game and then b) negotiating with the other participants to determine whether they're actually true or not. . . .

Plenty of suggestions at the game table don't get picked up by the group, or get revised and modified by the group before being accepted, all with the same range of time and attention spent negotiating. . . .

Mechanics might model the stuff of the game world, that's another topic, but they don't exist to do so. They exist to ease and constrain real-world social negotiation between the players at the table. That's their sole and crucial function.​

In some sorts of task-resolution oriented systems, based heavily around creating a shared imagining of ingame causal processes, I think it's perhaps true to say that the dice represent otherwise unspecified elements of the fiction - Rolemaster is the game of this sort that I know best, but RuneQuest would be another example. Though I know from experience that this gets pretty tricky: for instance, does the roll to hit with an arrow in an archery contest reflect a sudden gust of wind, or an insect settling on the archer's nose as they loose their arrow? Maybe - but this sort of game aspires to model all that stuff as inputs into the roll (there are rules in RM, for instance, for the effects of wind on archery), and so the representational reading of the dice undercuts a core ethos of the game. (Again, this is not mere speculation - it's something I've experienced in playing RM.)

This is why, as I posted upthread, My starting point is that the randomiser doesn't represent anything: it's a decision procedure, not a model.

 

[Barner Cobblewood]

This is why, as I posted upthread, My starting point is that the randomiser doesn't represent anything: it's a decision procedure, not a model.

I think it represents something significant coming into being play. Whatever that is, it wasn't present before.

 

[Fenris-77]

@pemerton - that the game presents a difficulty number means it's applicable to the die roll, correct? That doesn't change anything I said.