D&D 5E (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Ancoulainn]

Oops may have been cleave

You hit one creature and if another creature stands within 5 feet of the first, you can roll to hit that one as well with the same attack if it's within your reach and for the damage, you don't add the ability modifier, but other modifiers like rage bonus and other damage riders still apply. For people, who are more visual, you can just show that on a battlemap. Like this:

1 - yes, with both Greataxe and Halberd
2 - yes with Halberd, no with Greataxe
3 - no with either

 

[Zardnaar]

You hit one creature and if another creature stands within 5 feet of the first, you can roll to hit that one as well with the same attack if it's within your reach and for the damage, you don't add the ability modifier, but other modifiers like rage bonus and other damage riders still apply. For people, who are more visual, you can just show that on a battlemap. Like this:

1 - yes, with both Greataxe and Halberd
2 - yes with Halberd, no with Greataxe
3 - no with either

It's the prof modifiers to danage. Its a pita to keep track seeing a player struggle (theyre 14 1 session played with feat).

 

[Ancoulainn]

It's the prof modifiers to danage. Its a pita to keep track seeing a player struggle (theyre 14 1 session played with feat).

You confused me now. Are we talking about Cleave or Great Weapon Master or both?

If it's Cleave, then your proficiency modifier doesn't matter because you don't add them to your damage roll anyway. You only add your ability modifier to damage rolls, except when it's the Cleave attack against the second creature because the Weapon Mastery property says so.

If it's Great Weapon Master, then yes, you add your proficiency modifier to the damage roll of attacks made with the attack action, but not bonus action attacks, opportunity attacks, or attacks made as part of the Magic Action, like when casting True Strike or Booming Blade and you're not an Eldritch Knight who replaces one attack with casting a Wizard cantrip as part of the Attack Action with War Magic.

Or do you mean a combination of both? Cleave when you have Great Weapon Master?

If so, this is indeed a bit more complicated, but I'd say no. Great Weapon Master says that the attack has to be made as part of the Attack Action and the Cleave Mastery Property does not say that the attack against the second is made as part of the same action like the Nick property says. Such wording is missing here. Also, the Cleave Mastery Property says that the target takes the weapon's damage, meaning just that and nothing else. Unlike spells like Conjure Minor Elementals, which say something like "any attack you make", so the damage could be added to the Cleave attack against the second creature, there is nothing regarding Great Weapon Master that could override the wording "takes the weapon's damage" like the wording of Conjure Minor Elementals does.

However, personally, I consider this an oversight as it is only missing a wording such as "as part of the same action, bonus action, or reaction" to make this applicable and I would homebrew this, so that the extra damage from Great Weapon Master applies to the Cleave attack against the second creature if the attack against the first creature was made as part of the attack action. And if it's your table and I were you, I'd make that ruling in favor of the player in that case. But I always rule in favor of the player in such cases, so you could call me biased. Quite honestly, if one of my players didn't go ahead now and create an Eldritch Knight and then Cleaved with True Strike as part of the Attack Action through War Magic and with Great Weapon Master, I'd be disappointed, but if they did, they'd get all the damage minus the ability modifier because that's cool and clever. And Rule of Cool is my jam.

 

[Zardnaar]

You confused me now. Are we talking about Cleave or Great Weapon Master or both?

If it's Cleave, then your proficiency modifier doesn't matter because you don't add them to your damage roll anyway. You only add your ability modifier to damage rolls, except when it's the Cleave attack against the second creature because the Weapon Mastery property says so.

If it's Great Weapon Master, then yes, you add your proficiency modifier to the damage roll of attacks made with the attack action, but not bonus action attacks, opportunity attacks, or attacks made as part of the Magic Action, like when casting True Strike or Booming Blade and you're not an Eldritch Knight who replaces one attack with casting a Wizard cantrip as part of the Attack Action with War Magic.

Or do you mean a combination of both? Cleave when you have Great Weapon Master?

If so, this is indeed a bit more complicated, but I'd say no. Great Weapon Master says that the attack has to be made as part of the Attack Action and the Cleave Mastery Property does not say that the attack against the second is made as part of the same action like the Nick property says. Such wording is missing here. Also, the Cleave Mastery Property says that the target takes the weapon's damage, meaning just that and nothing else. Unlike spells like Conjure Minor Elementals, which say something like "any attack you make", so the damage could be added to the Cleave attack against the second creature, there is nothing regarding Great Weapon Master that could override the wording "takes the weapon's damage" like the wording of Conjure Minor Elementals does.

However, personally, I consider this an oversight as it is only missing a wording such as "as part of the same action, bonus action, or reaction" to make this applicable and I would homebrew this, so that the extra damage from Great Weapon Master applies to the Cleave attack against the second creature if the attack against the first creature was made as part of the attack action. And if it's your table and I were you, I'd make that ruling in favor of the player in that case. But I always rule in favor of the player in such cases, so you could call me biased. Quite honestly, if one of my players didn't go ahead now and create an Eldritch Knight and then Cleaved with True Strike as part of the Attack Action through War Magic and with Great Weapon Master, I'd be disappointed, but if they did, they'd get all the damage minus the ability modifier because that's cool and clever. And Rule of Cool is my jam.

Think ill go with action tgat triggers it. So yes unless its a bonus action or reaction.

Simplicity is yes to everything.

I dont have tge books in front of me so can't remember exact wording.

One negative of 5.5.

 

[ECMO3]

Can't agree with that. First of all, you're a sitting duck and most likely get slaughtered.

No you aren't. If he is incapacitated he can't take actions

Second of all, with those actions, you could cast a control spell like Wall of Force, drop a Greater Demon behind the enemies, control a group of enemies with Hypnotic Pattern, debuff an entire group with Synaptic Static, just kill that guy, or do a lot of other things that have a much bigger impact.

You can't cast any of those things without using a spell slot and all of them are concentration.

As a matter of fact I can do one of these AND do Hypnotic Gaze the next round in addition in the same fight, for exactly the same spell slot resource cost! And do it again and again and again and again in the same day.

But tell me, you and your buddies are level 12 and you're fighting a Death Knight CR 17 in a deadly encounter. How are you going use the Enchantment Wizard's features to help your party get out ahead?

Been there, done that. Assuming he has already used his hellfire orb in round 1, then Otto's Iresistable dance - automatically imobilizes him for a turn.

After that you have a ton of effective spells to bring to bear at 12th level.

Or you're playing Eve of Ruin and are 17th level and all that stands between you and the next part of the Rod of Seven Pieces is the CR 23 Tiefling Bard Windfall. How are these features going to help you win the fight?

I played Vecna Eve of Ruin. We did not have a Wizard at all. I played a Kobold at that point she was a Swashbucker7/Whispers Bard 5/ /Hexblade Warlock 5 who was a Wrymspeaker in the Cult of the Dragon. We got into the Dragon's pride because I demanded an audience with Tiamat. When we got in Windfall turned on us and attacked us. We defeated her pretty darn easily.

Here is the PC at 20th level:

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Because those are the fights where it matters.

Now what is Chronorgy going to bring to these two fights that and Enchantment Wizard can't already do or in some cases do better?

If you are "fighting" a death Knight you don't have time to start burning all your 5th and 6th slots for your telekenisis trick which has almost no chance of working and we didn;'t even know we were going to fight at all in the Casino, so you certainly woudl not heve burned spell slots ahead of time there.

It's generally considered the most powerful feature in the game by the likes of D4, Treantmonk, Dungeon Dudes, Pack Tactics, and others. But you don't have to agree with that.

I haven't heard them say that, and if they did they are wrong.

You can give it to your familiar and let them cast it.

And most of the time that is going to be a wasted spell slot. Familiars dies all the time, often in the first round of combat, if you have them walking around the dungeon with you often out of combat too. This can work and it can be powerful at times, but you don't have a great chance of pulling it off, especially since you need to burn the slot ahead of time.

It effectively lets you have an additional 4th level spell active at the same time without being limited to a particular school of magic.

Ok so the two examples you gave - Telekenises and Summon Dragon don't actually work with that spell.

I know, I said 5th level spell previously and I apologize for the error. I confused myself by not having my glasses on. So, Summon Dragon is out, but it still allows a Battlemaster Fighter to have Summon Minor Elementals active, if they're interested in that.

Casting it would cost the Fighter damage in most battles, you are talking 2d8 a hit, losing an action to do it, you need to keep concentration for the payoff AND you have to predict that it will be useful ahead of time.

I can't tell why. Since using Arcane Abeyance takes the casting time of the spell, hence in most cases an action, you can do it right before combat.

And then if you don't fight within an hour or more accurately if you don't have a fight where you want to cast that specific spell within an hour it is a wasted spell.

That is the hitch here - you need to know exactly which spell will be useful for another character and you need to know it ahead of time.

If you used your Wizard spells wisely and scouted ahead with Arcane Eye, Scrying, and other divination spells, you know what's coming, unless your party doesn't do that sort of thing.

No you don't. The enemy are not statues even when you do "do that sort of thing" and many times you don't even know they are enemies.

And 7 Attacks means Polearm Master with Action Surge

No it means just action surge and Nick, which is a basic normal fighter with no feats. If we are min/maxing and adding feats and masteries it could be 8 with action surge

because basic Great Weapon Fighting would be 6 with Action Surge, unless there's a crit, and Dual Wielding with Nick would be 8 with Action Surge..

It is 7 either with Cleave or with Nick and no feats. With feats it is up to 9.

The light weapon property allows you to make "one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn" and with nick "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action"

Nick does not allow you to make two attacks with the light property on the same turn.

Sorry, but already the math just doesn't add up in your favor. I could do a detailed list of which choice would lead to higher damage against enemies of various ACs with calculated hit chances and respective averages, but we're both experienced enough to ballpark that already without, right?

Go ahead and crunch the numbers and show me!

The math is in my favor and don't forget to account for things like losing concentration and then after all this we will need to apply a correction factor for the possibility the fight does not actually happen in an hour.

Go ahead though, do that math!

Why? There is no range requirement to maintain a summon. The familiar can cast the spell and then fly away, hide behind total cover, or otherwise make itself untouchable.

If he gets a tuirn at all he MIGHT be able to fly away.

You mention a death knight above he is going to come in with a 22 initiative and start off with a fireball equivalent that will likely kill your familiar before you or the familiar get a turn. I don't know Windfall's abilities but I bet they are even worse.

and if I am really being trickey, then they go and pick up your spell off the ground and cast it themselves, maybe as a Legendary action!

so if your DM is strict and requires the familiar to issue the commands, this doesn't work for summoning spells.

If something requires a "verbal" command a familiar can not do it RAW as they can not talk (unless you are a Warlock).

I don't do easy combat. No encounter is ever under deadly. As my players say, "If we can't lose, there's no point in having the encounter. You might as well narrate it and get it over with." They're a waste of time to us.

If your familiars survive combat or even reliably survive flying around the Dungeon it is easy.

Of course not, but that's also not the actual situation. You'd use these kinds of spell slots in deadly encounters because otherwise, you're not going to make it out alive.

But you would have to know they were going to happen within an hour and if you don't it is a waste. That is HUGE limit to their general effectiveness.

I am not saying you never know when there will be a difficult encounter, but there are many times you don't. I would say in most campaigns most times you can't anticipate a deadly encounter within an hour most of the time and then even when you can you must know what spell is going to be useful.

For example, probably the most powerful 3rd level spell in the game is Fear and it is a great spell for a front liner, like a Fighter, to have on hand. So if you just know a difficult encounter is coming you might give the fighter Fear because it is awesome. but if it turns out you are fighting 1 guy instead of 8 then it is not that awesome, and if it turns out you are fighting a death knight it is useless, and if you go the other way and say ok I will give him Summon Fey, because while that is not as powerful, it is always useful .... but then now you have used a 3rd level slot on Summon Fey and instead you could have used that slot on Fear if it turns out you do end up fighting those 8 toughs in the next fight!

But only one at a time since it requires the Magic Action to use it. And it works only against targets that aren't immune to the poisoned condition which is very common. Against all others, yeah, it's good.

Telekenisis is only one at a time, is less effective generally, and in your example you were using 4 spells slots to land it!

Moreover here is the problem with this - If I cast Selune's viper I am reasonably confident the enemy I am facing when I cast it is going to be effected by poison. I could be wrong, but probably not. You are precasting something where do not usually have that information about the enemy.

That Bonus Action Hide helps little when the enemy has Blindsight, True Sight, and/or a high Passive Perception.

That is why I said "probably".

I mean, a Rogue with Reliable Talent and Expertise could probably get away with it, but otherwise, you're probably seen.

I do not think you will be probably seen with a high Dexterity and proficiency. You will at times no doubt and on those times you will attack normal without advantage, which is generally going to land more than a save will.

At level 10, with a party of 4, your major combat will most likely be against a CR 15 creature, so a Vampire Umbral Lord with Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, an Initiative of +14, spells like Command and Hunger of Hadar, and a Bonus Action Sanguine Drain, an Adult Green Dragon with a 60 feet cone weapon and 60 feet Blindsight and a Passive Perception of 22, meaning they see you unless you're behind full cover, a Mummy Lord with 60 feet True Sight, Legendary Actions and Resistances, and Dreadful Glare, or a Purple Worm who burrows under after their turn and probably grapples and swallows the weakest party member - the Wizard - on their first turn. Two of them are immune to the poisoned condition, two are immune to the charmed condition, and one is immune to the paralyzed condition.

Sure it was one example. The example you gave - 4 people casting telekenisis, even if you could do it has virtually no chance of success against any of them (actually no chance at all against the Dragon and the Worm).

Now what 4 spells did you hand out to your allies that would be effective against defeating all of them and more effective than using the best spell you could and party members taking their own actions?

Oh and while I am at it; if I am an enchantment Wizard that Worm needs to pass a DC 16 Wisdom save to bite and grapple me, while that Chrono Wizard is in the Worm's Belly!

Against those, you could have had two Elementals, Constructs, or Aberrations that can exploit the Mummy Lord's Vulnerability to Fire in case of the Fire Elemental, could break concentration on Hunger of Hadar, try to grapple the Purple Worm when it comes up (any creature can grapple under the 5.24e rules), or chase the dragon with their fly speed in case of Beholderkin and Air Elemental. And because of careful scouting with your Divination spells, you'd know what to expect.

No. First off you don't have the spell slots. You are 10th level Remember and you are handing out spells to other players like they are Candy AND casting high level divinations.

What is going to happen is you are going to have 2 Fire elementals and a fireball for allies to summon/cast because you did divine a Mummy up ahead and then you are going to run into that Worm, because how would you have divined that and he is going to gobble you up and you have no good spells for it. You use your 5th level slot to Dimension Door and escape its Belly (since you burned your 4th level slots). A little ways down if I am really being mean the Vampire Lord is going to command your Fighter to drop his spell bead and then he will summon the elemental to use against you.

You really need a short rest, but you can't because your spell beads only last 1 hour.

So now you are going into the third fight being beat up pretty bad with only Fire Elemental and weak spells.

Meanwhile if you didn't do this you would have more spells, you could short rest, go into the final fight against the Mummy and open up with a Fireball!

I think the latter works out better 9 times out of 10.

an Chronurgy Wizard, a Devotion Paladin, a Light Cleric, and an Elemental Monk make BarBQ out of any of them in less than 4 rounds otherwise.

Oh easily, but wasting all your spell slots to creat the Abeyance beads just makes it more difficult.

I've had deadly encounters like this where we shut down the enemy so well, we didn't even lose a single HP.

Yep that is pretty much what happened when my party faced Windfall but we had none of those subclasses.

But if you are into this Goblin-Hide-thing,

I use hide, it is not all the time. If I am making an attack though and I have an opportunity I do, and I do get proficiency with stealth. The bonus action disengage is what you want an Enchantment Wizard.

I suggest a Goblin Conjurer, Necromancer, or Illusionist. Grab the Telepathic feat, so you can issue your verbal commands silently,

There is no way to issue "verbal commands" silently. The Telepathic feat lets you communicate silently.

In any case I would not play a Goblin on any of those subclasses, I would play an Eladrin.

Another neat approach is any Warlock with Gaze of Two Minds and Pact of the Chain. Grab an Imp, let him go invisible,

I've played tons of Warlocks, more than any other class in 5.5E and this is a good trick,, but it is expensive. It is beat by a country mile by a Pseudodragon which can sting at will and cause unconsciousness and you don't need to use any action at all because it is not an attack.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Among others, you talked about

• using an action for Twilight Sanctuary, even though that runs passively in the background after it's set up with an action which is generally done on the first turn, and spells like Healing Word or Sanctuary are bonus action spells that you could have cast on the same turn and couldn't have cast two leveled spells with spell slots on the same turn instead,
• seeing Arcane Abeyance in action involving Summon Fiend been given to a Fighter, even though it only works up to 4th level spells and Summon Fiend is a 6th level spell, which, even if my misreading/misremembering had been true, wouldn't have worked and definitely doesn't work RAW,
• the very same level 18 Fighter from the very same campaign, in which you saw Arcane Abeyance in action, wanting to make 7 attacks, only to then later argue based on a "basic normal fighter with no feats" and not the actual Fighter in the campaign just to contradict that an 18th level Fighter with Polearm Master and Action Surge has 7 Attacks, even though it's true because 3 from Attack Action + 1 Bonus Action from Polearm Master + 3 from Action Surge makes 7 attacks,
• including concentration as a consideration for a spell like Summon Greater Demon, even though the spell leaves the demon on the battlefield for 1d6 rounds after concentration dropped, so that for an average of 3-4 rounds after dropping concentration, the Barlgura will add 85 hp to the battlefield, add to the action economy, and make 3 attacks with a +7 to hit for an average of 33.5 damage every round and with clever positioning, it will be against your enemies, while arguing that making 3 additional attacks with +11 to hit once as a Dual Wielder for an average of 25.5 damage would be better than the alternative,
• the Chronurgy Wizard being in the Worm's belly, even though with their Initiative of +3 from Dexterity +5 from Intelligence + 4 from Alert = 12 on top of being able to swap their initiative with an ally, which includes their familiar, they're likely to go before the Worm with their Initiative of +3 and set up their defenses for the occasion and the hit chance of the Worm against an Artichron with their AC of 19, respectively 24 with Shield spell, is 55% compared to 70% against a pure Enchantment Wizard with Shield spell and the Worm's chance to withstand Instinctive Charm against a DC of 16 is 45%, unless another party member has Silvery Barbs handy and hasn't used their reaction yet, on top of the fact that the Chronurgy Wizard does not have to be within 50 feet of the Worm to do their thing, so without Dashing, the Worm couldn't even get to them,
• 4 people casting Telekinesis, which is something I never said, and cannot be done with Arcane Abeyance since it only works with 4th level spells and there can only be one bead in existence at a time unless someone casts Prayer of Healing to give the benefit of a Short Rest without requiring an hour of time,
• Telekinesis not having a chance at all against the Worm or an Adult Dragon, even though Telekinesis involves a Strength saving throw, thus with a spell save DC of 16 has a 30% chance against the Worm, respectively 51% with Silvery Barbs via Fey-Touched or Magic Initiate or Chronal Shift, and a 45% change against the Dragon respectively 69.75% with Silvery Barbs via Fey-Touched or Magic Initiate or Chronal Shift, while a Fighter of the same level with a +9 to hit has a 55% chance to hit the Dragon with an attack and a 60% to hit the Worm with an attack,
• that the Umbral Vampire Lord would force the Fighter to drop the bead which would be metagaming because the Umbral Vampire Lord has no means of knowing that the Fighter has a tiny object on him that was given to him previously in preparation for the fight,
• not having the spell slots due to casting high level Divination spells, even though Arcane Eye lasts for an hour, spells like Augury or Divination can be cast as Rituals, and spells like Locate Object or Speak with Animals are low level spells,
• not being able to divine what you might be running into, like a Purple Worm, even though you clearly can,
• Gaze of Two Minds being expensive, even though it just requires a bonus action to set up and maintain every turn in return for casting any spell with Advantage - if it involves an attack roll - from the safety of full cover,
• playing tons of Warlocks and more than any other class in 5.5e in the 18 months since its release, making me wonder how many high-level campaigns you can really fit into those 18 months, even if you play 3-4 concurrently with at least weekly sessions, and the campaign involving the Chronurgy Wizard and the level 18 Fighter must have been 5.5e - because you argued based on the Nick property which didn't exist before - and it can't have been Eve of Ruin - because you said that you had no Wizard in that campaign.

Sure, I initially said that Arcane Abeyance would be up to 5th level spells when it actually only works for up to 4th level spells and that was an honest mistake due to misreading/misremembering, but it was ultimately inconsequential because whether you use it for a 5th level summoning spell or a 4th level summoning spell doesn't change much. I know you might want to say the same with regards to your "experience" with Arcane Abeyance, but that's a recount of something that supposedly happened, not misreading. Now, you could have just misremembered that it was actually Summon Greater Demon or a different summoning spell, but you didn't really feel the need to correct that when asked about it.

Also, you keep deliberately ignoring that both the Charmed and the Poisoned condition are two of the most resisted conditions in the Monster Manual. I haven't counted it for the 2024 Monster Manual, but for the 2014 Monsters Manual, about 20% were immune to Charmed and about 25% were immune to Poisoned. You said once that in those cases, you would have other means at your disposal but apparently found it irrelevant that the Chronurgy Wizard's features do not depend on the lack of immunities, thus even when such immunities are encountered, the Chronurgy Wizard still has useful class features while the Enchanter solely relies on the base Wizard chassis. And they are both equally adept at using Selune's Viper and, in fact, the Chronurgy Wizard could give that spell to another party member. And they could be a Goblin or their party member could be one. In short, your approach here does not qualify as an honest exchange of minds.

In addition, you made a lot of statements about "experiences" that are either unlikely to have happened as stated or impossible to have happened because the way you described the features is not how they work as illustrated, among others, with the Fighter allegedly been given Summon Fiend via Arcane Abeyance. And I may have even missed a thing here or there that would also have belonged in the list of contradictions. At best, it's all just misunderstood theory and stated without any actual experience playing. Consequently, I have a really hard time believing that any of these "experiences" actually happened and that you know what you're talking about. And at the same time, you come across as someone who wants to argue for the mere sake of being antagonistic as the 7-attacks-situation illustrates. I probably could say that water is wet and you would contradict that. Thus, any further discussion is pointless.

But as you say:

I haven't heard them say that, and if they did they are wrong.

And as long as it works for you and you're having fun, keep believing that you know everything better than anybody else, including popular figures with 100k+ followers on YouTube, and that your opinion is superior to everyone else's in every way.

However, if you care about what others think at all, you can, for example, take a look the Dungeon Dudes Wizard tier ranking for 5e and you'll see that the Dungeon Dudes rank the Enchanter in S-tier below the Diviner and the Chronurgy Wizard while the community ranks the Enchanter in B-tier, the Diviner and Bladesinger in S-tier, and the Chronurgy Wizard in A-tier. In fact, if you go through all 4 parts of the video series, you can see that 30.7% of the community voted the Chronurgy Wizard into S-tier, 62.9% of the community voted the Diviner into S-tier, and only about 4% voted the Enchanter into S-tier.



You could also look at Tabletop Builds and their Flagship Build series here:

DnD 5E Flagship Build Series: Introduction -Tabletop Builds

For our Flagship Build Series, we will be publishing what we believe to be the seven absolute most powerful character builds in D&D 5E.

tabletopbuilds.com

It's predominantly for 2014 builds, but the underlying considerations carry over in many cases.

Or you could listen to why Pack Tactics thinks that the Chronurgy Wizard is the king of all wizards here:



But what do they know, right?


Have a good one! I'm moving on!

 

[ECMO3]

Among others, you talked about

• using an action for Twilight Sanctuary

​

Here are the rules, note underlined:

​

Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary​

At 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight.

As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you.

• , even though that runs passively in the background after it's set up with an action which is generally done on the first turn, and spells like Healing Word or Sanctuary are bonus action spells that you could have cast on the same turn and couldn't have cast two leveled spells with spell slots on the same turn instead,

Sanctuary and Healing Word are not powerful spells at high level. They are weak and very weak respectively.

At 5th level Twilight Sanctuary is very powerful. At 12th level not so much and at 20th level it is downright weak, even if you follow it up with something like Mass Healing Word.

• seeing Arcane Abeyance in action involving Summon Fiend been given to a Fighter, even though it only works up to 4th level spells and Summon Fiend is a 6th level spell, which, even if my misreading/misremembering had been true, wouldn't have worked and definitely doesn't work RAW,

And you multiple times talked about Fighters summon Dragon AND Telekenisis. So I confused Summon Greater Demon, which in fact summons a Fiend with Summon Fiend.

What is your excuse for the two spells you mentioned?

Ironic that you have seen this work so awesome in play but didn't bother to actually use an example from play?

• the very same level 18 Fighter from the very same campaign, in which you saw Arcane Abeyance in action, wanting to make 7 attacks, only to then later argue based on a "basic normal fighter with no feats" and not the actual Fighter in the campaign just to contradict that an 18th level Fighter with Polearm Master and Action Surge has 7 Attacks, even though it's true because 3 from Attack Action + 1 Bonus Action from Polearm Master + 3 from Action Surge makes 7 attacks,

Not the same fighter, I was correcting you regarding 7 attacks. I don't see high level Fighters with PAM. I do see many that use Two Weapon Fighting and I do see many that use Great Weapon Master.

The Fighters I see with PAM are the people who try to optimize around it and then generally get disatisfied.

• including concentration as a consideration for a spell like Summon Greater Demon, even though the spell leaves the demon on the battlefield for 1d6 rounds after concentration dropped,

This is only true if the Demon is not controlled. If you just drop concentration or lose it before the demon makes a save it disappears like any other summons.

• so that for an average of 3-4 rounds after dropping concentration, the Barlgura will add 85 hp to the battlefield, add to the action economy, and make 3 attacks with a +7 to hit for an average of 33.5 damage every round and with clever positioning, it will be against your enemies, while arguing that making 3 additional attacks with +11 to hit once as a Dual Wielder for an average of 25.5 damage would be better than the alternative,

Fighters at that level are doing around 100 damage on an attack action after magic weapons, subclass abilities etc.

This sounds like a lot of white room theory crafting on your part.

• the Chronurgy Wizard being in the Worm's belly, even though with their Initiative of +3 from Dexterity +5 from Intelligence + 4 from Alert = 12 on top of being able to swap their initiative with an ally, which includes their familiar, they're likely to go before the Worm with their Initiative of +3r

Ok they win initiative and then end up in the Worms Belly.

You are the one who said the Worm grapples and swallows the Wizard on its first turn.

• and set up their defenses for the occasion and the hit chance of the Worm against an Artichron with their AC of 19, respectively 24 with Shield spell, is 55% compared to 70% against a pure Enchantment Wizard with Shield spell and the Worm's chance to withstand Instinctive Charm against a DC of 16 is 45%,

Ok to start with If we want to start talking about multiclasses it is a completely different discussion.

That said, DC would normally be 17 at that level, which means the worm needs a 13 to save .... 2 points more than he needs to hit an AC 25 AND if he makes the save he still rolls the attack and can miss on the attack roll.

Assuming 8 strength:
Chance to swallow a 24 AC Artichron - 55% chance of hit *95% chance of failing swallow save = 52% chance of being swallowed

Chance to swallow a 16 AC Enchanter who uses Instinctive Charm: 40% chance of making save*95% chance of hit*95% chance of failed swallow save = 36% chance of being swallowed

So the Enchantment Wizard is substantially less likely to be swallowed than a multiclass you put uo to try to prove your pint.

• unless another party member has Silvery Barbs handy and hasn't used their reaction yet, on top of the fact that the Chronurgy Wizard does not have to be within 50 feet of the Worm to do their thing, so without Dashing, the Worm couldn't even get to them,

You are the one who said the Worm would burrow into the ground and come up under the Wizard. No Wizard needs to be within 10 feet to do their thing

• 4 people casting Telekinesis, which is something I never said, and cannot be done with Arcane Abeyance since it only works with 4th level spells

Here are your words, you tell me what the underlined means:

Did they use Arcane Abeyance to bind Summon Dragon into the bead, given it to a party member, preferably a Fighter or Artificer, or their familiar, then cast Summon Dragon normally to have two summons on the battlefield at the same time. Have they used Telekinesis to burn through legendary resistances and then forced a fail to virtually incapacitate?

• and there can only be one bead in existence at a time unless someone casts Prayer of Healing to give the benefit of a Short Rest without requiring an hour of time,

Ok so it is even weaker.

• Telekinesis not having a chance at all against the Worm or an Adult Dragon, even though Telekinesis involves a Strength saving throw, thus with a spell save DC of 16 has a 30% chance against the Worm, resctively 51% with Silpevery Barbs via Fey-Touched or Magic Initiate or Chronal Shift

From the spell description:

You can try to move a Huge or smaller creature. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw ...

A purple worm is Gargantuan.

• that the Umbral Vampire Lord would force the Fighter to drop the bead which would be metagaming because the Umbral Vampire Lord has no means of knowing that the Fighter has a tiny object on him that was given to him previously in preparation for the fight,

Don't you use Divinations, Arcane Eye and similar things in your games? Don't the enemies also use those things? Some of the animals you are talking to are probably even his allies/pets.

Of course he knows, why wouldn't he?

• not being able to divine what you might be running into, like a Purple Worm, even though you clearly can,

The Worm is probably underground as they tend to be.

• Gaze of Two Minds being expensive, even though it just requires a bonus action to set up and maintain every turn in return for casting any spell with Advantage - if it involves an attack roll - from the safety of full cover,

It requires an Invocation.

• playing tons of Warlocks and more than any other class in 5.5e in the 18 months since its release, making me wonder how many high-level campaigns you can really fit into those 18 months,

I have completed 5 campaigns using the 5.5 rules. Three of them were 1-20 or 10-20 campaigns (although VEOR was started before the rules were released).

Sure, I initially said that Arcane Abeyance would be up to 5th level spells when it actually only works for up to 4th level spells and that was an honest mistake due to misreading/misremembering, but it was ultimately inconsequential because whether you use it for a 5th level summoning spell or a 4th level summoning spell doesn't change much. I know you might want to say the same with regards to your "experience" with Arcane Abeyance, but that's a recount of something that supposedly happened, not misreading. Now, you could have just misremembered that it was actually Summon Greater Demon or a different summoning spell, but you didn't really feel the need to correct that when asked about it.

You asked "did they use it" to summon a dragon or use telekenisis to burn through legendary resistance, strongly implying they have used it for this in your games.

As a point of fact I did not say the fighter used nick. I said he made 7 attacks, maybe he didn't, although you could still do that with lighr weapons before nick existed by adding your bonus action. What I do know is he attacked.

Also, you keep deliberately ignoring that both the Charmed and the Poisoned condition are two of the most resisted conditions in the Monster Manual.

Poison resistance won't help you against being incapacitated Selune's Viper. Charm resistance (i.e. Fey Lineage) will give you a bonus on saving throws and make it less effective.

What really mattters is immunity and I did not ignore it and I did not ignore that. I pointed out specifically an Enchanter is a wizard with a full selection of spells for creatures immune to charm AND in the hypothetical about the Vampire I even said I would probably NOT use Selune's Viper because I would think he was immune (even though he isn't)

But what do they know, right?

They didn't consider using it on a Goblin I guess. Treantmonk said when he reviewed Enchantment Wizard that he does not see them often in play but that they impress every time he does see them.

Have a good one! I'm moving on!

You too!

 

[Zardnaar]

Among others, you talked about

• using an action for Twilight Sanctuary, even though that runs passively in the background after it's set up with an action which is generally done on the first turn, and spells like Healing Word or Sanctuary are bonus action spells that you could have cast on the same turn and couldn't have cast two leveled spells with spell slots on the same turn instead,
• seeing Arcane Abeyance in action involving Summon Fiend been given to a Fighter, even though it only works up to 4th level spells and Summon Fiend is a 6th level spell, which, even if my misreading/misremembering had been true, wouldn't have worked and definitely doesn't work RAW,
• the very same level 18 Fighter from the very same campaign, in which you saw Arcane Abeyance in action, wanting to make 7 attacks, only to then later argue based on a "basic normal fighter with no feats" and not the actual Fighter in the campaign just to contradict that an 18th level Fighter with Polearm Master and Action Surge has 7 Attacks, even though it's true because 3 from Attack Action + 1 Bonus Action from Polearm Master + 3 from Action Surge makes 7 attacks,
• including concentration as a consideration for a spell like Summon Greater Demon, even though the spell leaves the demon on the battlefield for 1d6 rounds after concentration dropped, so that for an average of 3-4 rounds after dropping concentration, the Barlgura will add 85 hp to the battlefield, add to the action economy, and make 3 attacks with a +7 to hit for an average of 33.5 damage every round and with clever positioning, it will be against your enemies, while arguing that making 3 additional attacks with +11 to hit once as a Dual Wielder for an average of 25.5 damage would be better than the alternative,
• the Chronurgy Wizard being in the Worm's belly, even though with their Initiative of +3 from Dexterity +5 from Intelligence + 4 from Alert = 12 on top of being able to swap their initiative with an ally, which includes their familiar, they're likely to go before the Worm with their Initiative of +3 and set up their defenses for the occasion and the hit chance of the Worm against an Artichron with their AC of 19, respectively 24 with Shield spell, is 55% compared to 70% against a pure Enchantment Wizard with Shield spell and the Worm's chance to withstand Instinctive Charm against a DC of 16 is 45%, unless another party member has Silvery Barbs handy and hasn't used their reaction yet, on top of the fact that the Chronurgy Wizard does not have to be within 50 feet of the Worm to do their thing, so without Dashing, the Worm couldn't even get to them,
• 4 people casting Telekinesis, which is something I never said, and cannot be done with Arcane Abeyance since it only works with 4th level spells and there can only be one bead in existence at a time unless someone casts Prayer of Healing to give the benefit of a Short Rest without requiring an hour of time,
• Telekinesis not having a chance at all against the Worm or an Adult Dragon, even though Telekinesis involves a Strength saving throw, thus with a spell save DC of 16 has a 30% chance against the Worm, respectively 51% with Silvery Barbs via Fey-Touched or Magic Initiate or Chronal Shift, and a 45% change against the Dragon respectively 69.75% with Silvery Barbs via Fey-Touched or Magic Initiate or Chronal Shift, while a Fighter of the same level with a +9 to hit has a 55% chance to hit the Dragon with an attack and a 60% to hit the Worm with an attack,
• that the Umbral Vampire Lord would force the Fighter to drop the bead which would be metagaming because the Umbral Vampire Lord has no means of knowing that the Fighter has a tiny object on him that was given to him previously in preparation for the fight,
• not having the spell slots due to casting high level Divination spells, even though Arcane Eye lasts for an hour, spells like Augury or Divination can be cast as Rituals, and spells like Locate Object or Speak with Animals are low level spells,
• not being able to divine what you might be running into, like a Purple Worm, even though you clearly can,
• Gaze of Two Minds being expensive, even though it just requires a bonus action to set up and maintain every turn in return for casting any spell with Advantage - if it involves an attack roll - from the safety of full cover,
• playing tons of Warlocks and more than any other class in 5.5e in the 18 months since its release, making me wonder how many high-level campaigns you can really fit into those 18 months, even if you play 3-4 concurrently with at least weekly sessions, and the campaign involving the Chronurgy Wizard and the level 18 Fighter must have been 5.5e - because you argued based on the Nick property which didn't exist before - and it can't have been Eve of Ruin - because you said that you had no Wizard in that campaign.

Sure, I initially said that Arcane Abeyance would be up to 5th level spells when it actually only works for up to 4th level spells and that was an honest mistake due to misreading/misremembering, but it was ultimately inconsequential because whether you use it for a 5th level summoning spell or a 4th level summoning spell doesn't change much. I know you might want to say the same with regards to your "experience" with Arcane Abeyance, but that's a recount of something that supposedly happened, not misreading. Now, you could have just misremembered that it was actually Summon Greater Demon or a different summoning spell, but you didn't really feel the need to correct that when asked about it.

Also, you keep deliberately ignoring that both the Charmed and the Poisoned condition are two of the most resisted conditions in the Monster Manual. I haven't counted it for the 2024 Monster Manual, but for the 2014 Monsters Manual, about 20% were immune to Charmed and about 25% were immune to Poisoned. You said once that in those cases, you would have other means at your disposal but apparently found it irrelevant that the Chronurgy Wizard's features do not depend on the lack of immunities, thus even when such immunities are encountered, the Chronurgy Wizard still has useful class features while the Enchanter solely relies on the base Wizard chassis. And they are both equally adept at using Selune's Viper and, in fact, the Chronurgy Wizard could give that spell to another party member. And they could be a Goblin or their party member could be one. In short, your approach here does not qualify as an honest exchange of minds.

In addition, you made a lot of statements about "experiences" that are either unlikely to have happened as stated or impossible to have happened because the way you described the features is not how they work as illustrated, among others, with the Fighter allegedly been given Summon Fiend via Arcane Abeyance. And I may have even missed a thing here or there that would also have belonged in the list of contradictions. At best, it's all just misunderstood theory and stated without any actual experience playing. Consequently, I have a really hard time believing that any of these "experiences" actually happened and that you know what you're talking about. And at the same time, you come across as someone who wants to argue for the mere sake of being antagonistic as the 7-attacks-situation illustrates. I probably could say that water is wet and you would contradict that. Thus, any further discussion is pointless.

But as you say:

And as long as it works for you and you're having fun, keep believing that you know everything better than anybody else, including popular figures with 100k+ followers on YouTube, and that your opinion is superior to everyone else's in every way.

However, if you care about what others think at all, you can, for example, take a look the Dungeon Dudes Wizard tier ranking for 5e and you'll see that the Dungeon Dudes rank the Enchanter in S-tier below the Diviner and the Chronurgy Wizard while the community ranks the Enchanter in B-tier, the Diviner and Bladesinger in S-tier, and the Chronurgy Wizard in A-tier. In fact, if you go through all 4 parts of the video series, you can see that 30.7% of the community voted the Chronurgy Wizard into S-tier, 62.9% of the community voted the Diviner into S-tier, and only about 4% voted the Enchanter into S-tier.



You could also look at Tabletop Builds and their Flagship Build series here:

DnD 5E Flagship Build Series: Introduction -Tabletop Builds

For our Flagship Build Series, we will be publishing what we believe to be the seven absolute most powerful character builds in D&D 5E.

tabletopbuilds.com

It's predominantly for 2014 builds, but the underlying considerations carry over in many cases.

Or you could listen to why Pack Tactics thinks that the Chronurgy Wizard is the king of all wizards here:



But what do they know, right?


Have a good one! I'm moving on!

Internet community are basically idiots.

Dungeon Dudes are worth listening to.

Youtubers aren't actually thay good. Theyre ahead of the internet community generally. Theyre just more prominent.

You can find better information here and on reddit. Hell a few of the youtubers use reddit. They also consider higher levels more than what gets played at the table. Theory crafting.

d4. He plays more for fun. His builds aren't anything to special.

Treantmonk. Good for DOR calculations. Has missed things however. Made some big mistakes on his class comparison damage guide as he compared some poor builds to inadvertently ine of the best. Wasn't apples to apples. ECMO3 spotted same combo I did that he missed. To much theorycrafting and assumptions. Regarded as a bit of a joke by better players on reddit (he misses stuff and silly assumptions) . He a powergamer above average one even but isnt God.

Pack tactics. Bit more powetgamey dies specify check with DM first as they acknowledge it might be exploitive. Better at spotting combos. Worth listening to.

Dungeon Dudes. Very good, point out nuance ad if your game doesnt reach theses levels. More real experience vs high level theorycrafting.

ECMO3 I would listen to them espicially in regards to higher level stuff.

I regard cheap twin spell effects (55 sorcerer and split enchantment) very high as I've seen that effect a lot. Espicially paralyzed.

I regard cronurgy near the top of 5.0 wizards and enchanters are up there as well. Both S tier.

 

[Ancoulainn]

You are correct on a few things here that I overlooked. However, there are some particular "misunderstandings" that need addressing.

I never

talked about Fighters summon Dragon AND Telekenisis

and I also never asked

"did they use it" to summon a dragon or use telekenisis to burn through legendary resistance

but instead said exactly what you quoted which was

Have they used Telekinesis to burn through legendary resistances and then forced a fail to virtually incapacitate?

which nowhere indicates the suggestion to use Arcane Abeyance to cast Telekinesis. Have they used Telekinesis? and Have they used it (=Arcane Abeyance) to cast Telekinesis? don't have the same meaning. It suggests burning through legendary resistances using Telekinesis, Chronal Shift, and Silvery Barbs and then forcing a fail using Convergent Future.

Secondly, I said

Also, you keep deliberately ignoring that both the Charmed and the Poisoned condition are two of the most resisted conditions in the Monster Manual. I haven't counted it for the 2024 Monster Manual, but for the 2014 Monsters Manual, about 20% were immune to Charmed and about 25% were immune to Poisoned.

meaning that I was talking about immunity to the Poisoned condition and immunity to the Charmed condition and not about

Poison resistance won't help you against being incapacitated Selune's Viper

or

Charm resistance (i.e. Fey Lineage) will give you a bonus on saving throws and make it less effective

So, if you feel the need to write another response, could you please respond to what I actually said? It would be most appreciated!

As for,

They didn't consider using it on a Goblin I guess

I guess it's possible that an entire community and several YouTubers simply didn't think of it and you are the only one who figured it out because even though

Treantmonk said when he reviewed Enchantment Wizard that he does not see them often in play but that they impress every time he does see them.

he still ranked Enchanters lower than the Chronurgy Wizard.

 

[Zardnaar]

You are correct on a few things here that I overlooked. However, there are some particular "misunderstandings" that need addressing.

I never

and I also never asked

but instead said exactly what you quoted which was

which nowhere indicates the suggestion to use Arcane Abeyance to cast Telekinesis. Have they used Telekinesis? and Have they used it (=Arcane Abeyance) to cast Telekinesis? don't have the same meaning. It suggests burning through legendary resistances using Telekinesis, Chronal Shift, and Silvery Barbs and then forcing a fail using Convergent Future.

Secondly, I said

meaning that I was talking about immunity to the Poisoned condition and immunity to the Charmed condition and not about

or


So, if you feel the need to write another response, could you please respond to what I actually said? It would be most appreciated!

As for,

I guess it's possible that an entire community and several YouTubers simply didn't think of it and you are the only one who figured it out because even though

he still ranked Enchanters lower than the Chronurgy Wizard.

Two yutubers generally worth listening to rated on A the other S and vice versa.

I mentioned the enchanter all I said was its really good. So is the Exandria wizard.

All 3 of us here are really agreeing they're very powerful at high levels.

Its all subjective but its reasonably minor nitpicking. No one's saying ones a B or C subclass.

Except the viewers in DD video. Internet masses aren't very good at rating power tbh.