Shadowdark Unless I am wrong

[Bill Zebub]

No, they do. And that expectation is, "don't start any fights unless we absolutely have to." It's not a game about getting into fights -- there's no XP for doing so! -- it's an RPG about getting home with the treasure, by any means necessary.

Mmm....I do think it's a game about getting into fights. Just not in the same way as D&D 2nd-5th editions. You don't assume you can win just because the monster appears in your adventure.

 

[Scribe]

What is the bulk of the page content? Rules about fighting monsters.

This is the last response I have to this, because frankly there's no convincing you but others could learn something and I wouldnt want you to incorrectly influence them.

7-17 The basics.
18-26 - Classes and Background.
27 - 36 - Gear, Lore

37 - Weapons

38-87 - Spells, Playing the game.

88 - 89 - COMBAT

90 - 188 - NOT Combat

189 - 265 - Monsters. NOT COMBAT.

267 - 325 - Treasure, Loot, Items. NOT COMBAT.

So, out of a 325 page book how much of it is REALLY geared to combat?

37, 88, 89.

3 whole pages.

Are there items that are Weapons? Yes. Duh this is a game based on D&D and monsters exist and sometimes you slay them.

Does that make this a 'combat' game? 3 whole pages for combat?

Read your rule book again, if you think this is a combat centered game, read it again, and then go watch some video's from people who get what the game is about.

And then read it again.

Maybe start with something easy, like the Fighter, here is how some surface level analysis would go.

Weapons, Armor, HP? Looks like a sturdy guy! Maybe like a...Fighter.

Hauler? Hmm, wonder what the application is? Hmmm how does one get XP in this game? Treasure? Oh, and that takes Gear slots? HMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Weapon Mastery. You know what Fighters need to do? Fight well? Well look at that.

Grit. Hmm.......whats the application here? Does anyone know the DC for kicking in a door? Maybe breaking some ropes?

So we have 1 ability for Fighting. One ability for 'out of combat' and one ability that actually applies to the core gameplay loop of Treasure?

Yeah, sure seems like this is a combat sim to me! /s

 

[Fenris-77]

This is the last response I have to this, because frankly there's no convincing you but others could learn something and I wouldnt want you to incorrectly influence them.

7-17 The basics.
18-26 - Classes and Background.
27 - 36 - Gear, Lore

37 - Weapons

38-87 - Spells, Playing the game.

88 - 89 - COMBAT

90 - 188 - NOT Combat

189 - 265 - Monsters. NOT COMBAT.

267 - 325 - Treasure, Loot, Items. NOT COMBAT.

So, out of a 325 page book how much of it is REALLY geared to combat?

37, 88, 89.

3 whole pages.

Are there items that are Weapons? Yes. Duh this is a game based on D&D and monsters exist and sometimes you slay them.

Does that make this a 'combat' game? 3 whole pages for combat?

Read your rule book again, if you think this is a combat centered game, read it again, and then go watch some video's from people who get what the game is about.

And then read it again.

Maybe start with something easy, like the Fighter, here is how some surface level analysis would go.

Weapons, Armor, HP? Looks like a sturdy guy! Maybe like a...Fighter.

Hauler? Hmm, wonder what the application is? Hmmm how does one get XP in this game? Treasure? Oh, and that takes Gear slots? HMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Weapon Mastery. You know what Fighters need to do? Fight well? Well look at that.

Grit. Hmm.......whats the application here? Does anyone know the DC for kicking in a door? Maybe breaking some ropes?

So we have 1 ability for Fighting. One ability for 'out of combat' and one ability that actually applies to the core gameplay loop of Treasure?

Yeah, sure seems like this is a combat sim to me! /s

You can lead a horse to water but you can't fix its lack of reading comprehension.

 

[Andvari]

This is really the same debate going on over TTRPG General. Some people think that a 4 Int means you subtract 3 from all Int rolls. Other people think it means you have to roleplay an idiot and shouldn't be suggesting good solutions to problems.

I think the second interpretation is crazy.

Shadowdark avoids the mistake of describing the ability score as your character's ability to reason and process information, but maybe it should have been given another name. Just the fact that it is called "Intelligence" is already putting a lot of meaning into the mind of the reader. So I would say it is intuitive not to play a character with 3 Intelligence as a particularly intelligent character, rather than crazy. Even if incorrect.

 

[Retreater]

I mean, have y'all ever seen a game that's not D&D or a derivative?
Here are game systems other than SD with more rules, design, and advice for non combat play, including exploration and investigation: Forbidden Lands, Vaesen, Dragonbane, Call of Cthulhu.
I guess the appeal of SD is "fruitful void" design - the most important part of the game isn't covered in the rules and is up to GM fiat.
That design doesn't work for me.

 

[Xenolith234]

Does any game’s design work for you?

 

[Artamo]

I’ll just say that the players I’ve seen who treated SD like a combat-heavy RPG ended up very unhappy with their experience versus players who treated it as a series of “solve the problem” encounters.

 

[Scribe]

I guess the appeal of SD is "fruitful void" design - the most important part of the game isn't covered in the rules and is up to GM fiat.

I swear you have not read the book.

 

[Retreater]

Does any game’s design work for you?

While no game is "perfect," I can find some that work for what I want.

Daggerheart is really good for a narrative experience with enough tactical depth to stay interesting for a moderate-length campaign of 20-ish sessions.

Dragonbane is a great "beer and pretzels" style, OSR-feeling game. Good for short campaigns of 10-ish sessions.

Pathfinder 2 is fun for limited runs, maybe 3-5 sessions that focus on combat. It handles balanced combat pretty well - but balance does get boring after a while. Ultimately, I don't think the "juice is worth the squeeze."

Most games that are brutal and adversarial I can enjoy for a one-shot: Alien, Vast Grimm, Mothership, Mork Borg, Shadowdark, Call of Cthulhu.

 

[Jahydin]

This was my beef that I couldn't get over with Shadowdark. It's using old school ability generation with the modern modifier chart and DC system.
In the old era, I don't think it was possible to have a +4 or -4 in an ability modifier. With Shadowdark, it just basically copies stuff from Hasbro-era D&D without really caring how it fits with an OSR design ethos.

Sorry, long thread, so not sure if someone addressed this, but just wanted to point out that stat bonuses are used differently. For instance, STR bonus isn't added to damage and CON is only added at first level, so not nearly as powerful as it may seem at first glance.