AI art bans are going to ruin small 3rd party creators

[dragoner]

Just to note that the moderators here are currently discussing an AI policy going forward. So far we don't really have one, other than making our ethical issues with it repeatedly clear in the many, many threads about AI, but after somebody literally replied to me using AI recently, we realised we needed one. We'll have more on that very soon.

Ban it.

As per the OP, AI bans aren't hurting small creators, not from what I am hearing in the small creator spaces, majority are for the bans. I have not heard a single voice in those spaces support the AI mills, none.

 

[Blue]

Several years ago on an AI thread thread I wrote that AI bans will help the major corporations and hurt 3rd party creators. I faced some criticism for this.

Now we have exactly this coming to pass. Foundary recently banned AI art on its Marketplace. As a result, most of the small mom and pop 3rd party creators will need to remove their products or remove the art in their products.

Paying for art for 100 different monsters in a monster supplement, or dozens of NPCs in an adventure, is not a viable financial option on a publication that might sell 100 copies. Removing the art will make their products inferior to what is being published by the mega corporations that are selling thousands of copies and can absorb the cost to pay artists.

The argument "my business only works if I do something unethical" shouldn't fly regardless of the size of the business.

While generative AI as a tool isn't inherently unethical, using models trained on taken copyrighted pieces without compensating the authors is.

I don't care if it's a small RPG publisher using AI art, or a mom-and-pop store that doesn't let anyone become full time so can deny them benefits offered at hiring "when you go full time" -- if your business plan can't succeed without doing things that are unethical, I will not shed a tear if you go out of business.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Just to note that the moderators here are currently discussing an AI policy going forward. So far we don't really have one, other than making our ethical issues with it repeatedly clear in the many, many threads about AI, but after somebody literally replied to me using AI recently, we realised we needed one. We'll have more on that very soon.

Consider if you want to see responses of

Ai;dr

On those posts.

 

[Blue]

Just to note that the moderators here are currently discussing an AI policy going forward. So far we don't really have one, other than making our ethical issues with it repeatedly clear in the many, many threads about AI, but after somebody literally replied to me using AI recently, we realised we needed one. We'll have more on that very soon.

It's a rather divisive topic, but unlike the politics or real-world-religion ban, it's one that does come up legitimately in discussing RPGs on occasion. It won't be easy to thread that needle of keeping our community friendly but potentially still allowing it in RPG news like the Hasbro CEO announcements recently. Good luck to you and our mods trying to work out a reasonable solution, and don't get discouraged if there are some naysayers -- we're an opinionated lot here.

 

[Cergorach]

If your business model can't support paying people for their labor, you shouldn't be in business.

I wonder if you view the clothing you wear the same... A T-shirt woven, spun, and sewn entirely by hand would cost more then $4000... At US minimum wages...

The $3500 Shirt - A History Lesson in Economics

A criminally compelling web site featuring professional crime writers and crime fighters.

www.sleuthsayers.org

People have been historically replaced by machines, for good reason, and every time it happens, people that it's happening to or are conservative in their views rebel against that.

Quite a few folks argue that art shouldn't be made by machines... I would argue that what they consider 'art' is nothing more then illustrations or textbooks for RPGs... And before someone starts arguing, some recently argued another argument that they used the definition of a word from the dictionary...

the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

On the other hand we have things like the group KLF burning a million pounds as performance art, that certainly had emotional power! (look it up)

Many things have become profitable due to advances in technology, most of the 3rd party publishers here wouldn't be able to run their business without serious advances in DTP (essentially serious pre-press automation), online stores and crowdfunding.

I'm old enough to remember factory workers getting fired when companies started to automate heavily, massive protests, many folks calling it evil and immoral, these days it's just accepted and we all buy cheaper goods as a result. The whole generative AI/LLM thing isn't any different.

The big difference being is after all the development and hype is done, how many people will actually use it in daily life, how many people will actually buy products made with it for entertainment? On one hand 'Big Brother' was insanely popular (imho garbage television) on the other hand, not everyone has everything painted in a Cobra art style (on/in their homes, etc). Things come and go, but I think restricting things don't really help, they generally make things much, much worse. (Do I really need to give examples?) I would say, let it run loose and let the market decide.

I'm not buying certain AI made products, not because it's AI made, but because it's badly done. Other products I do buy, and not because they were non-AI made, but because they were well done and I wanted/needed them. I've had quite a bit of D20 products from the 2000-2010 era that are not worth the paper they're printed on... No AI involved there at all, quite a bit of human made junk to fill a content starved environment, that changed when the streets were filled with D20 crap...

 

[Morrus]

I wonder if you view the clothing you wear the same... A T-shirt woven, spun, and sewn entirely by hand would cost more then $4000... At US minimum wages...

The $3500 Shirt - A History Lesson in Economics

A criminally compelling web site featuring professional crime writers and crime fighters.

www.sleuthsayers.org

People have been historically replaced by machines, for good reason, and every time it happens, people that it's happening to or are conservative in their views rebel against that.

And there it is. It’s that exact same thread again.

I think we’re gong to need a space to shunt these threads off to. It’s “damage on a miss” all over again.

 

[monsmord]

And there it is. It’s that exact same thread again.

I think we’re gong to need a space to shunt these threads off to. It’s “damage on a miss” all over again.

I was gifted a vision of such a place for a brief, shining moment about 10 hours ago. Alas, 'twas a mirage, or an opiate dream. But what a glorious, shimmering place it might have been. Alar! Carcosa!

 

[humble minion]

Unscientifically and purely based on vibes, I suspect that AI bans HELP small creators much more than they hurt, because they mean that the products that the small creators make aren't drowned out in the sort of tidal wave of slop that deluges every outlet currently accepting electronic submissions - that has forced basically every spec-fic short story publisher to put a freeze on accepting unsolicited submissions, to take one example.

I will use AI-generated NPC pics in my own private games. I'm certainly not as pure as the driven snow here. But I won't ever knowingly purchase a product that uses AI generation at all, and I HAVE several times purchased products that used all stock art or no art at all. Human creativity, human writing and human art built this hobby, and I deeply dislike seeing tech companies that stole all that material to train their models now being leveraged to suppress all that exercise of human imagination and human skill in the next generation.

 

[Brendan Byrd]

I think we’re gong to need a space to shunt these threads off to. It’s “damage on a miss” all over again.

A forum named “ShuntSpace”, perhaps?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Unscientifically and purely based on vibes, I suspect that AI bans HELP small creators much more than they hurt, because they mean that the products that the small creators make aren't drowned out in the sort of tidal wave of slop that deluges every outlet currently accepting electronic submissions - that has forced basically every spec-fic short story publisher to put a freeze on accepting unsolicited submissions, to take one example.

This is 100% my experience. I've seen it personally, as a small creator, seeing work I've done get lost in the flood of products. It's basic math. If you're stuff is 5% of what's being released that month, and now it's less than 1% because there's a ton of AI stuff, less people are going to see your stuff.

Like trying to navigate DTRPG.com for stock art before their AI filter got put in place. It was exponentially harder to find non-AI stuff.