D&D General Path of Feats: a Superior Design than Subclasses

[Minigiant]

While this may be subjective, I think a lot of PrC would ideally fall in the same bucket you place shadowdancers in. For example, Arcane Archers should at the very least be buildable off of a Fighter or a Ranger. Building them as a subclass means half the relevant audience is sidelined. And we’re not even getting into more interesting/exotic builds, for example, why wouldn’t an Arcane Trickster grow into an Arcane Archer? You could say they can and they simply need to dip into Fighter first, and maybe that’s fine, but maybe that does not fit the character theme as well as if there was a more direct path to get there. That is why I say subclasses are like straight jackets. Needlessly constraining

I was describing the types of Prcs and using 3e Prcs as references.

The 3e Arcane Archer is just a Fighter twist. Its just 6 feat level class featuress at the same Fighter progression.

1. Enchance Arrow
2. Imbued Arrow
3. Seeker Arrow
4. Phase Arrow
5. Hall of Arrows
6. Death Arrow

The5e AA is a subclass because what SIX FEATS. No one

Arcane Archer is not like Shadowdancer because Shadowdancer has and is built around Hide in Plain Sight. HIPS is too OP at low level.

Thats the main issue.

For every class except ranger, your Tier Bump Power Spike comes from your base class. Subclass and Feats just augment your Tier Bump Power Spike.

This is why multiclasses stinks unless you powergame. You miss or delay your Tier Bump Power Spikes.

For Prestige classes to work in 5e, a PrC has to replace your 5th level and 11th level Tier Bump Power Spike.

Most 3e Prestige Classes weren't designed to have Tier Bump Power Spike. 3e's power came from Base Attack Bonus and Spell Level advancements. That doesnt translate to 5e as Extra attack and spell level come from base class.

 

[Corinnguard]

Baelnorn says hi.

Okay, point taken. These guys aren't too different from Eberron's Deathless.

https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Deathless

 

[Tigris]

I haven't read the whole thread but I would really not like the idea of subclasses being replaced by paths of....feat trees, I will be calling them that for simplicity.

For one, we can look to different systems as evidence that new players can get utterly overwhelmed by too many options from the get go.

ah this is definitly true. Look at PF2 where there are tons of feats but in the end many of them are dependant on one another, so its judt dubclasses in disguise but way more complicated.

Second, I think it would be much easier to abuse if all subclass abilities were converted into feat trees, especially with more elastic requirements it could lead to something like a Paladin taking early abilities of Oath of the Crown and late-game ones of Oath of Redemption, effectively picking best of both worlds.

well this could be made a bit better if one balances power level of specific levels better, but sure overall this will definitly happen.

 

[Corinnguard]

ah this is definitly true. Look at PF2 where there are tons of feats but in the end many of them are dependant on one another, so its judt dubclasses in disguise but way more complicated.

PF2's overabundance of feats is why I like to call it Featfinder.

 

[Minigiant]

well this could be made a bit better if one balances power level of specific levels better, but sure overall this will definitly happen

The problem is PF2 heavily needs outcome and output.

D&D is too high power to do Feat trees and remain balanced. There would be branches that arent strong enough or branches that would be too complex for a feat

 

[Tigris]

D&D is too high power to do Feat trees and remain balanced. There would be branches that arent strong enough or branches that would be too complex for a feat

I fully agree. The PF2 feats only work because its quite low power in total. They do have limitations of power for low level feats especially. And a lot ofnpower of a class in progression just comes from the numerical progress.

D&D 5 with the more limited modifiers cannot really do that and needs higher power features (also because its more high fantasy in low levels)

 

[Silam]

Moreover, we pretty much had 3e and all its iterations strongly rewarding system mastery and punishing not making "optimal" choices and it was one of worst things about this system, that I do not think even its own creators liked, considering they put lot of alternative options for different styles of play but the way the game as a whoel was constructed lead to everything suboptimal being labeled a trap choice.

In some ways 3e was easier than 5e, but in most ways it was equivalent or harder in complexity. Regardless, I definitely wouldn’t say 3e succeeded at attaining the "easy to learn, hard to master" motto (at least not the first half …). So saying that motto is not a good guiding pricinple is like saying neither communism nor capitalism work because both the Soviets and the Gringos are corrupt. They are, sure, but that is not a definitive indictment of either system, just flawed implementation.

For Prestige classes to work in 5e, a PrC has to replace your 5th level and 11th level Tier Bump Power Spike.

I feel like this is devolving into minutiae and not really convincing… but just to acknowledge the argument in earnest and go along with it, I would say that 3e had very few, if any, PrC with such low requirements that you could get them before 5th level anyway, so a PrC would not be replacing your 5th level features from a core class (unless you wanted to, by excessively diluting your early levels via lots of multiclassing…). So I’m not sure where the argument is coming from…?

 

[Minigiant]

I feel like this is devolving into minutiae and not really convincing… but just to acknowledge the argument in earnest and go along with it, I would say that 3e had very few, if any, PrC with such low requirements that you could get them before 5th level anyway, so a PrC would not be replacing your 5th level features from a core class (unless you wanted to, by excessively diluting your early levels via lots of multiclassing…). So I’m not sure where the argument is coming from…?

I mean.

The bulk of a 5e PCs power comes from what they get at 5th, 11th, and 17th.

Most Prcs were 5 or 10 levels. So they are taking up the level range of a Tier Bump Power Spike or 2.

If you are a Fighter 5 and take Duelist.... Duelist cant give you anything more powerful than a feat until Duelist level 6. At which point it needs something as strong as a 3rd attack.

Thats my point.

Either PrCs replace you core class power or take many levels to be cool.

OR
Every Prestige Class would be like a ranger from level 7-17.

 

[Remathilis]

That’s not the big whammy you think it is, Prestige classes were always just another form of subclasses, or vice-versa, whichever way you want to look at it, but as it is, subclasses currently are not applicable across multiple classes nor have prerequisites to taking them, not to mention these prestige classes would exist in addition to subclasses.

Prestige classes work because you can multiclass into them regardless of your class. If you build them around only specific classes (or specific class, singular) they become subclasses again. And if the prerequisites is anything more complicated than "spellcaster" or "has extra attack feature" level of simple, your going to encourage multiclass builds. Third edition originally went for "perquisites that fit the prc" which encouraged dips into multiple classes to "this prc is clearly built for one specific class" which made the proto subclasses. Which is why you go from Duelist (a prestige class that almost demands multiple dips to qualify) to Master Specialist (a prc that only specialist wizards can take).

I just fail to see what prestige classes bring that can't be done with feats or subclasses except more complexity and encouraging multiclass dips.

 

[Minigiant]

I just fail to see what prestige classes bring that can't be done with feats or subclasses except more complexity and encouraging multiclass dips.

I agree.

Really the only real unique thing a Prestige Class would do is create a totally new style of character that doesnt really stack with any base class.


Like Dragon Disciples. Its a warrior class that uses a bite and claw matrix which requires spellcastion to enter. So the prerequisites wumould be too crazy to power game and the Bite Claw Claw and Dragon Breath would not stack great with the Fighter, Barbarian, or whatever you enter it with.

5e isnt set up for Prestige Classes nor "Feat Paths"