D&D General Path of Feats: a Superior Design than Subclasses

[Steady Vane]

I think I might see an issue though with the fact you are not obligated to complete the path and thus you could be a part lich or semi death knight. Not sure how I feel about that yet.

What is stopping you from being part Lich, part Death Knight, and part Ooze Lord all at once? The chains being psuedo-class identities is strange. Ah yes, I am a Death Knight Gish, but my main class is Barbarian

 

[Steady Vane]

Prestige Classes would only work if they were

1. Tied to a level. You get in at level 5 or 11 at the Tier opening level.
2. They are utraspecify to only work with certain classes OR ultra specific and dont synergy with any unique class features

Otherwise it would be impossible to be anywhere near benchmarks and result in disappointment

That just sounds like Subclasses then

 

[Silam]

What is stopping you from being part Lich, part Death Knight, and part Ooze Lord all at once? The chains being psuedo-class identities is strange. Ah yes, I am a Death Knight Gish, but my main class is Barbarian

I guess the concern is it goes against previous lore somewhat.

The canonical way (at least as far as I know) to become a lich is to embark on a convoluted fetch quest to bring together some 10 or 12 exotic ingredients, which you use to craft a philactery and perform some sort of ritual suicide with. Then you emerge as a lich.

While you have all but one of the ingredients, you may be very close to becoming a lich and yet also 0% a lich. And you may be at that rung on the ladder for a limited amount of time because some of the ingredients had a freshness requirement and if they grew stale you would need to find them again, but anyway that’s besides the point. The point is, you could amass most or even all of the ingredients and then not follow through with it, and walk away, but in the original lore if you did that you would be 0% a lich, not partway.

Once you did become a lich, there was (again, if I remember correctly) one more epic level progression beyond that which was to turn into a demi-lich, which was just the skull floating around. So that was a bit of a path, though that is not captured in the UA content.

With this UA feat path, you are kind of taking baby steps, in particular having a philactery which doesn’t do much for you and might even be more of a downside overall. For purists this may be straight up wrong. For more open minded folks it may just be yet another iteration of lore, to be thrown in the heap of past lores and just as valid, even if different.

As far as I’m concerned, I’m not a fan of either of the two paths (DK and lich) in and of themselves, but as I tried to make the case, I’m a fan of the "prestige feat path" mechanic in general.

 

[Minigiant]

That just sounds like Subclasses then

Subclasses dont have Tier Bump Power Spikes.

You get Extra Attack from class.
Subclasses that give Extra Attack are the OP ones.

 

[Maxperson]

That just sounds like Subclasses then

That's all they ever were. Subclasses that you could pick if you met the prerequisites.

 

[Maxperson]

Subclasses dont have Tier Bump Power Spikes.

You get Extra Attack from class.
Subclasses that give Extra Attack are the OP ones.

You're still not understanding. Subclasses are built into the class now, so you don't get only the "subclass" for X consecutive levels like you did in 3e. That allows them to put the extra attacks into class for 5e and spread out the "prestige class" abilities. A prestige class for 5e = subclass.

If 5e subclasses were addons like 3e prestige classes, they would need to have things like extra attacks built into them so the class doesn't fall behind. It's just different design for the same thing.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That just sounds like Subclasses then

Besides the fact they get to exist alongside subclasses and aren’t tied to a specific class, but ‘being like subclasses’ isn’t a negative in my books.

 

[Minigiant]

You're still not understanding. Subclasses are built into the class now, so you don't get only the "subclass" for X consecutive levels like you did in 3e. That allows them to put the extra attacks into class for 5e and spread out the "prestige class" abilities. A prestige class for 5e = subclass.

If 5e subclasses were addons like 3e prestige classes, they would need to have things like extra attacks built into them so the class doesn't fall behind. It's just different design for the same thing.

I don't think everybody's understanding what I'm saying.


A fighter gets the extra attack feature at multiple levels..

The fighter gets:
2 attacks at level 5
3 attacks at level 11
4 attacks at level 20

These are the main subclass for their damage.
Fighters subclasses, common at 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15th and 18th. Subclass overlays with class to provide power. The bulk of Fighter power comes from main class.

But prestige classes dont.

A Fighter4/Duelist7 has 1 attack.
A Fighter5/Duelist6 has 2 attacks
A Fighter6/Duelist5 has 2 attacks
A Fighter7/Duelist4 has 2 attacks
A Fighter8/Duelist3 has 2 attacks
A Fighter9/Duelist2 has 2 attacks
A Fighter10/Duelist1 has 2 attacks
A Fighter11/Duelist0 has 3 attacks

At which level do you give the dualist prestige class an additional attack which cannot be cherrypicked?

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think everybody's understanding what I'm saying.


A fighter gets the extra attack feature at multiple levels..

The fighter gets:
2 attacks at level 5
3 attacks at level 11
4 attacks at level 20

These are the main subclass for their damage.
Fighters subclasses, common at 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15th and 18th. Subclass overlays with class to provide power. The bulk of Fighter power comes from main class.

But prestige classes dont.

A Fighter4/Duelist7 has 1 attack.
A Fighter5/Duelist6 has 2 attacks
A Fighter6/Duelist5 has 2 attacks
A Fighter7/Duelist4 has 2 attacks
A Fighter8/Duelist3 has 2 attacks
A Fighter9/Duelist2 has 2 attacks
A Fighter10/Duelist1 has 2 attacks
A Fighter11/Duelist0 has 3 attacks

At which level do you give the dualist prestige class an additional attack which cannot be cherrypicked?

It doesn't matter which level, because this is 5th edition. It mattered in 3e where it wasn't designed like 5e is.

In 3e the extra attack didn't matter nearly as much as the metric crap ton of feats did. The -10 for the 3rd attack meant it missed most of the time anyway, especially when you are power attacking.

You're trying to compare two very differently designed games too closely. Broad comparisons like prestige classes and subclasses are the same are okay, though.

 

[Minigiant]

It doesn't matter which level, because this is 5th edition. It mattered in 3e where it wasn't designed like 5e is.

In 3e the extra attack didn't matter nearly as much as the metric crap ton of feats did. The -10 for the 3rd attack meant it missed most of the time anyway, especially when you are power attacking.

You're trying to compare two very differently designed games too closely. Broad comparisons like prestige classes and subclasses are the same are okay, though.

Extra Attack comes from class.
Extra Attack doubles your DPR at leve 5.

A subclass might give you 25% more damage on the high end.
A feat might give you 10-20% more damage on the high end outside of PAM, GWM, & DW.

A PrC at class strength has to give you +100% DPR/Survivilbility/Resources if you get it at 5th level or +50% if you are still in at level 11.

Subclasses and feats allow for much low power.

This is the half the problem people have with ranger. At level 11, they do not get a massive damage buff and the survivability. Buff, that they get is not as significant as that damage. Buff, that they would have got.

If you don't hit the Tier benchmark, your character is significantly weaker.