D&D General Path of Feats: a Superior Design than Subclasses

Well Dragon Disciples had to be nondragons so...
Plus, the Prestige class came well before the Dragonborn were first introduced as a transitive race in 3e's Races of the Dragon.

Slightly OT, Purple Duck Games back then had a 20-level Dragon Disciple Prestige Class. It was a hybrid of PF1's Magus and Sorcerer classes.
I swear I'm a person. ;)
Do you also solemnly swear that you are up to no good? ;) hands you the Marauder's Map
Ranger subclass
A5e has an Arcane Sniper subclass for its' spell-less Ranger by Purple Martin Games. It works like the Arcane Archer subclass.
 

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A bit of pushback here. Why won't 'prestige feat paths' have the same kinds of issues we just talked about with universal subclasses? I guess i should clarify, issues other than the needing to redesign all 5e class bits, because i agree that isn't related. But the same kinds of issues that not redesigning all the 5e class bits would cause with universal subclasses in 5e.

The big issues I see with universal subclasses are the different power budgets, that the subclass features come at different levels and different frequencies. For feats those issues are nearly fully eliminated. I say nearly because Fighters and Rogues get a few extra feats, but I think that should probably not be a big deal balance-wise. It would be even cleaner if feats came from character levels (like the PB) rather than class levels, but that is a bigger redesign, and not necessary IMHO.

But why not just have any other similar feats listed separately? What is the desire to have another feat as a prereq there at all based on?

I don’t think there should be artificial coupling where none is warranted. It should only be done when the feats fit thematically together. Some ideas:

- A path with the Lucky origin feat as entry point. Provides new options for spending those luck points.

- A path with the Defensive Duelist feat as entry point. Provides extra benefits in the following round after using the reaction to deflect an attack.

Stuff like that warrants prereqs. Let’s have no prereqs when none are warranted.

This particular idea sounds absolutely terrible to me. Feats where they only improve if you take others in a sublist. There's no real way to balance this around anything other than a player taking all those feats, which means either your remaining feat slots get loaded up with them or you don't bother with that kind of feat at all. It's one of those, suck for a few levels to be really good later ideas. I'm solidly against that.

Sure. Maybe that particular mechanic is not a good idea!

The 5e implementation leaves very few feat slots. That's one major limitation of trying to force too much heavy lifting into feats.

But is it really wrong to not have enough free resources to complete more than one prestige path? How many of those do you think characters should have?

I'm not against some specific use case for the idea, but I don't think it's a good thing to proliferate even to a moderate degree, or to suggest outside of some very specific use case as opposed to the general design direction you are suggesting.

That’s fair. Maybe it’s a niche thing and should not be proliferated widely. I kinda have the same opinion about subclasses… their proliferation adds more overall complexity than many people admit. But we can certainly disagree there.
 
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Thats initially the problem.

Lack of uniformity means PrC's cant work evenly among classes.

If Tier Bump Power Spike was 5, 10,15, 20 for every class. Then you could

For 1 class PrCs
  • 5 levels of Base Class for Tier 2 Power Spike at level 5.
  • 10 levels of Prestige Class for Tier 3 Power Spike at Prc5.
  • 5 levels of Base Class when 10th level Tier 3 Power Spike is you Tier 4 Power Spike.
2 class PrCs
  • 5 levels of a combination of 2 Base Classes
  • 10 levels of Prestige Class for Tier 2 Power Spike at Prc1 and Tier 3 Power Spike at Prc5.
  • 5 levels of Whatever. Build your own you Tier 4 Power Spike via a 2nd Epic Boon.
I don't see it as a problem at all. In fact, we know it isn't a problem because of multiclassing. Multiclassing also delays power spikes. Folks opt to delay the spike in favor of versatility, story, or whatever other reason they have for deciding on two or more classes.

A prestige class would be the same. If you don't want to delay a power spike, don't take the prestige class until after it or not at all. If you are okay with the delay, take it. You don't need uniform tier power spikes for prestige classes to be workable.
 

The big issues I see with universal subclasses are the different power budgets, that the subclass features come at different levels and different frequencies. For feats those issues are nearly fully eliminated. I say nearly because Fighters and Rogues get a few extra feats, but I think that should probably not be a big deal balance-wise. It would be even cleaner if feats came from character levels (like the PB) rather than class levels, but that is a bigger redesign, and not necessary IMHO.
IMO. If the stated goal is to have a feature than can thematically tie a universal concept together in 2-3 feats worth of abilities then your never going to design a 2-3 feat package that applies roughly equally to every class that can take them. There's just to many different synergistic and anti-synergistic style abilities.
I don’t think there should be artificial coupling where none is warranted. It should only be done when the feats fit thematically together. Some ideas:

- A path with the Lucky origin feat as entry point. Provides new options for spending those luck points.

- A path with the Defensive Duelist feat as entry point. Provides extra benefits in the following round after using the reaction to deflect an attack.

Stuff like that warrants prereqs. Let’s have no prereqs when none are warranted.
IMO. If the stated goal is to add more to abilities already given by other feats then that's the exact kind of 3/3.5e style feats bloat that's not great for the game.

Unlike the first suggestion of using them for universal prestige paths, I think this one of using them to expand abilities granted by existing feats technically works, it's just bad design for the stated reasons.
But is it really wrong to not have enough free resources to complete more than one prestige path? How many of those do you think characters should have?
Wrong? That's a strong word. I don't think it's good design to use the feat space to enable either style of prestige paths. I don't think the universal ones will work at all due to balance concerns, and i think the other version you described just leads to unncessary feat bloat, ala 3/3.5e.
 

Do you also solemnly swear that you are up to no good? ;) hands you the Marauder's Map
No, no, look, and I’ve gotta tell you, people ask me this all the time, they really do. They say, “Are you up to no good?” They hand me the little map, very cute map, wonderful map, people love the map, they say it’s the best map, tremendous map and I look at them and I say, “No. I’m not up to no good. Not even a little.”

And they’re shocked, they can’t believe it, because they think, “Oh, he’s got the map, he must be up to something.” But I’m not. I’m just holding the map. You can hold a map, folks, doesn’t mean you’re doing anything bad. A lot of people hold maps. The best people hold maps. Doesn’t mean anything.
 

I totally get the appeal of simplicity. I definitely do not wish to push complexity down anyone’s throat.

Obviously, any splatbook beyond the PHB adds complexity no matter what. And obviously, each DM can choose to impose the use of core rules only, and each player can choose to refrain from looking at splatbooks even if the DM allows it (FOMO notwithstanding).

All that said… if we do open the door to splatbooks and accept that they will introduce more complexity, then I think it is still worth having a conversation about what the shape of that complexity is.

Let’s take a concrete example: how should the Arcane Archer be designed? It could be a:
  • Fighter subclass (that’s what it was in the recent UA, unless I’m mistaken).
  • Ranger subclass.
  • Subclass of any other class. Maybe Wizard, for a Bladesinger-with-a-bow kind of vibe. Or Bard, for a my-harp-also-shoots-arrows kind of vibe, etc.
  • Bundle of feats. Maybe there is an "entry feat" and a "capstone feat" with a few more in between, like the paths we’ve seen in the villainous options UA, or maybe some other style (fully independent feats, or tree-like, or chain-like, etc.).
So let’s consider which of these options are simpler or more complex.

If you wanted to play a Fighter but none of the existing subclasses caught your fancy, then making the AA a Fighter subclass is a slam dunk. This is the optimal case. Very clean and simple indeed.

If you felt like your character should have had more of a wilderness vibe, and that a Ranger would have fit better, then you’re looking down the barrel of a two-way multiclass. But what does that mean? Concretely it means 17 possibilities, ranging from Ranger 1 / Fighter (AA) 19 all the way to Ranger 17 / Fighter (AA) 3. And that’s the level 20 build, but the progression from 1-20 in terms of leveling order has more permutations than I care to compute right now.

If you felt that Wizard or Bard were closer to your AA concept, you have the same complexity level as with the Ranger/Fighter multiclass above.

If AA was a subclass of any of the other classes you would still have all of the same situations, but with some of the roles reversed, so it doesn’t really solve anything, it’s just wack-a-mole.

If you wanted to do something more complex like the 3.5e Fochlucan Lyrist, which was some sort of triple threat arcane/divine/martial prestige class, then you would already have your hands full trying to multiclass between Bard, Druid and whatever else. If you are forced to squeeze a Fighter subclass in there too when you otherwise didn’t intend to, then that may be quite complicated, if not impossible. (There isn’t really a way to be a proper triple threat build in 5e rules as was the case in 3.5e so while this example is a theorycraft challenge, it would be very unlikely to be a powerful build, more likely a very weak one that we’re trying to optimize to be the least weak possible while still attaining the desired flavor.)

What if instead… you still had the option of multiclassing any way you wanted between Fighter, Ranger, Bard and/or Wizard or anything else, BUT you also had the option of playing a single-classed character and pick up anywhere between 1 and 3-4 feats to layer the AA flavor on top? I think the build complexity could be much smaller, since single-classing is inherently simpler (and overall better supported by 5e rules anyway) than multiclassing.

So… simplicity is in the eye of the beholder. I get it that to some people subclasses feel simpler. And when they fit well they most certainly are! It’s just that oftentimes they don’t fit that well, and then you end up twisting yourselves into knots with multiclassing when 1 or 2 feats on top of a single-class build could have been perfectly fine.

Multiclassing is complex too, yes.
 

IMO. If the stated goal is to have a feature than can thematically tie a universal concept together in 2-3 feats worth of abilities then your never going to design a 2-3 feat package that applies roughly equally to every class that can take them. There's just to many different synergistic and anti-synergistic style abilities.

That might be true… but if it is, then I don’t see how any addition to the game can ever attain this ideal that it "applies roughly equally to every class that can take them".

A single feat, a new full class with new subclasses, a new subclass of an existing class, or even a "prestige class" (i.e., a class with prereqs and less than 20 levels)… any and all of those mechanics could conceivably apply not equally to every class that can take them.

If the new option is Charisma-based, it’ll gel better with Charisma SAD classes and less well if it makes you MAD. And even beyond simple stat-related interaction there could be many other so-called synergies and anti-synergies.

The only way to not risk unbalancing the game any further is to reject every future splatbook and stick to PHB-only games. And that is totally fine for those who want to play that way.

But if we are going to introduce more complexity and accept the associated risk of power creep and imbalance, then I don’t see how we can lay that risk at the feet of feats nor feat paths anymore than any other mechanic…

IMO. If the stated goal is to add more to abilities already given by other feats then that's the exact kind of 3/3.5e style feats bloat that's not great for the game.

Ok… I guess there is some aesthetic bottleneck that makes this feat mechanic unappealing somehow. Just like I personally have some aesthetic issues with the restrictions, complexities and side-effects of the subclass mechanics. But at this point if aesthetics are the only real issues left, we’re not discussing game balance anymore. I guess two differently implemented and roughly balanced games can have different aesthetics and therefore appeal to different people. If that is where we have arrived in the discussion, that is fine, but it means there may not exist a game design that appeals equally to both of us (which is to be expected and not a big deal; not every game is for everyone…).

Unlike the first suggestion of using them for universal prestige paths, I think this one of using them to expand abilities granted by existing feats technically works, it's just bad design for the stated reasons.

I guess I don’t see the distinction you’re drawing? We discussed many examples. A feat for liches, for arcane archers, for duelists, for mage slayers, for lucky people… why are some of these concepts acceptable and others not? What’s the magic sauce that distinguishes them?

Wrong? That's a strong word. I don't think it's good design to use the feat space to enable either style of prestige paths. I don't think the universal ones will work at all due to balance concerns, and i think the other version you described just leads to unncessary feat bloat, ala 3/3.5e.

But then, the distinction I’m fishing for above may not matter after all, since you state here that either way it’s bad.

You mention "unnecessary feat loat"… but can we have a conversation about what bloat even means?

Maybe an example could help… look at gishes: the Bladesinger Wizard and the Valor Bard are very similar subclasses, since their level 6 and 14 abilities are the same. I’m actually a bit peeved that the Bladesinger whose flavor I love has such little differentiation from a Bard, whose flavor I abhor, but that’s besides the point. Subclasses should in theory give us great differentiation but as evidenced in the BS/VB conparison, they do not. These subclasses feel the same and so let’s roll with that fact.

By being Wizard/Bard subclasses, they can’t apply to any other full spellcasting classes like Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids, nor can they be combined with other Wizard/Bard subclasses. Is the solution to have a Sorcerer gish subclass with the same abilities as the BS/VB get at levels 6 and 14, but slightly re-skinned abilities for the 3rd and other levels? And then more equivalent subclasses for Clerics and Druids?

Why can’t I pay some number of feats with high enough prereqs to have a non-stackable "Extra Attack where one of the attack can be substituted for a Cantrip"? Or even just the latter part of it (i.e., it has Extra Attack and the ability to cast 3rd level spells as prereqs, and the only thing it gives is the ability to sub one attack for a Cantrip)? If that’s still too strong, make it a full feat and not a half-feat?

The point is, I believe there must be a sufficiently restrictive way to design this feature into a feat that respects game balance, and that little feat adds much less bloat to the game than three whole new subclasses…

Multiclassing is complex too, yes.
🤝
 

I don't see it as a problem at all. In fact, we know it isn't a problem because of multiclassing. Multiclassing also delays power spikes. Folks opt to delay the spike in favor of versatility, story, or whatever other reason they have for deciding on two or more classes.

A prestige class would be the same. If you don't want to delay a power spike, don't take the prestige class until after it or not at all. If you are okay with the delay, take it. You don't need uniform tier power spikes for prestige classes to be workable.
Multiclassing proves the point.

Poorly multiclassed PCs are TERRIBLE. When everyone else has the Tier Power Spike but you dont, it is very jarring.

Multiclassing usually only is used well if you are "abusing" the strongest bits of 5e or relying on not playing the tiers when you dont get a Spike.

Prestige Classes more or less inherently are based around going to and missing Tier Bump Power Spikes due to their lengths. 10 levels of prcs means you miss 2 of them.
 

Multiclassing proves the point.

Poorly multiclassed PCs are TERRIBLE. When everyone else has the Tier Power Spike but you dont, it is very jarring.

Multiclassing usually only is used well if you are "abusing" the strongest bits of 5e or relying on not playing the tiers when you dont get a Spike.

Prestige Classes more or less inherently are based around going to and missing Tier Bump Power Spikes due to their lengths. 10 levels of prcs means you miss 2 of them.

MC in 5e is very oddly designed. A few examples:
  1. Feats are gotten from class levels, not character levels, meaning that a MC build which doesn’t stick to multiples of 4 for each class "loses out" on feats compare to a pure class build. On the other hand, a MC build which does stick to multiples of 4 can get two Epic Boons by level 20, which a pure class build cannot.
  2. MC spell slot math has weird rounding artifacts.
  3. All of the power spike stuff discussed above.
  4. Cantrips and Proficiency Bonus are based on character levels, which is fine in isolation, but clashes with the rest of the mechanics. For example, consider that a Warlock 1 / Fighter 16 can throw 4 times as many Eldritch Blasts as a Warlock 4, even though they have 1/4 of the Warlock levels, essentially displaying a 16x delta between actual power and expected power. Granted, I am comparing a level 17 character to a level 4, but that is just 4.25x the experience, not 16x…
So anyway, it’s clear that MC in 5e is at best an afterthought and at worst a minefield.

That said, I struggle to understand why there is such a push in favor of the subclass design, which incentivizes multiclassing.

If feats were more interesting, it may be possible to have more builds which are single class + the right feats rather than multiclass, or at least MC with fewer number of classes in them. Why is it so frowned upon to have options for "lightweight multiclassing via feats"?

Having more interesting feat options could also lead to more players choosing them over ASIs, and accepting that they won’t have any stat at 20 by 20th level.

With current 5e rules, it’s almost guaranteed that any moderately optimized character has 20 in at least one stat, and maybe even two, by 20th level. Why is such sameness and homogeneity considered ideal? In the name of simplicity? Maybe it’s too complex if builds aren’t all mostly the same? But I thought the big fear of having more feat options was that it inevitably led to sameness 🤔 … well, if sameness is already what we have anyway, then why does it matter?
 

So anyway, it’s clear that MC in 5e is at best an afterthought and at worst a minefield
Multiclassing was a afterthought
Feats were afterthoughts
Cantrips were an afterthought
Epic Boons were an afterthought
Subclass balance and futureproofing was aafterthought

5e isnt bad but and I'll say it again... was designed for grognards to pull them back in the fold.

Feat, MCing, Subclasses, Cantrips were all throw in to get the late 2e, 3e and 4e players to play with the grognards.

But by waiting 10 years to update the system, they allowed Sunken Cost to keep them from rejiggering 5.5e heavily.
 

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