D&D 5E (2024) The Versatile STR Fighter: Melee with a Real Ranged Option

[Cap'n Kobold]

How so? As I noted Cantrips are not fenced to Full Casters. Every single martial can grab 2 Cantrips with an Origin Feat and they can get them through a species or General Feats.

I think it is actually the other way around in 2024 because it is more difficult for most full casters to get proficiency in martial weapons than it is for martials to get Cantrips. Play for example a single class Bard that is not Valor or Wizard that is not Bladesinger or any Sorcerer at all and I think you are completely locked out of martial weapon proficiency in the 2024 rules.

When martials can cast using their primary or secondary ability scores in the same way that many casters can wield weapons using their primary or secondary ability scores, that might be a concern.

Feats like GWM which don't play nice with cantrips like True Strike, and weapon Mastery, are some of the few areas where martials actually get to use something that isn't also given cheaply to casters.

 

[Minigiant]

When martials can cast using their primary or secondary ability scores in the same way that many casters can wield weapons using their primary or secondary ability scores, that might be a concern.

Im surprised no one ever pushed for a "Wand Dexterity" feat or subclass to cast spells with Dexterity or Strength 5e and blow up D&D enough to get people to examine it.

 

[ECMO3]

When martials can cast using their primary or secondary ability scores in the same way that many casters can wield weapons using their primary or secondary ability scores, that might be a concern.

??? Rangers and Paladins cast using their primary or secondary ability scores, that is two entire martial classes that do this.

As far as full casters go there are no classes that allow wielding ranged weapons using a primary or secondary ability as a basic class feature. The only way I know of to get this is through one subclass (Bladesinger) who can only do it part time and does not even get proficiency to do it effectively with martial ranged weapons. A Warlock can also do it with one weapon at a time but only if that weapon is Magic, and niether of them can use masteries.

Feats like GWM which don't play nice with cantrips like True Strike, and weapon Mastery, are some of the few areas where martials actually get to use something that isn't also given cheaply to casters.

Exactly! Cantrips are not superior to using weapons, even with the fact you don't have to count inventory for ranged attacks. That is what I have been saying all along.

If you play a PC (martial or caster) who relies on casting Cantrips for ranged attacks with the magic action you are significantly disadvantaged compared to using weapons with masteries and Extra Attack, the fact you don't have to manage inventory does not make up for this.

 

[Zardnaar]

??? Rangers and Paladins cast using their primary or secondary ability scores, that is two entire martial classes that do this.

As far as full casters go there are no classes that allow wielding weapons using a primary or secondary ability as a basic class feature. The only way I know of to get this is through one subclass (Bladesinger) who can only do it part time and through an Invocation for a Warlock that can do it with one weapon at a time only.




Exactly! Cantrips are not superior to using weapons, even with the fact you don't have to count inventory. That is what I have been saying all along.

If you play a PC who relies on casting Cantrips with the magic action you are significantly disadvantaged compared to using weapons with masteries and Extra Attack.

Thrown weapon build EK?

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

The concept
Build a STR‑primary, heavy‑armor, two‑handed Fighter who takes Great Weapon Master and the Archery Fighting Style, starting with 14 Dex. This creates a Fighter who is fully online in melee and has a real ranged damage mode without needing a Dex focus.

You get a legitimate ranged attack mode

• With 14 Dex and Archery Style:
• Attack bonus: +2 (Dex) +2 (Archery) + proficiency
  Damage: 1d8 + 2 (Dex) + proficiency (from 2024 GWM)
• This is real ranged DPR.

At level 5, your longbow attacks match a Dex dual‑wielder’s ranged accuracy
A Dex TWF build at level 5 typically attacks at:

• +4
• +3 proficiency
• no Archery bonus

Your damage bonus is higher thanks to GWM’s proficiency‑based rider.

Your defenses remain excellent
With heavy armor:

• You sit 1 AC above a Dex dual‑wielder
• You sit 1 AC below a STR melee specialist in plate + Defense Style
• You lose nothing meaningful in survivability

You don't sacrifice your melee identity
You’re still a full STR/GWM greatsword or maul Fighter:

• high STR
• Graze mastery
• heavy armor
• strong melee DPR
• no feat tax for ranged competence
• Your melee mode is untouched.

It works on virtually every subclass
This is a framework, not a specific build.

Done this on a Champion.. Rolled ridiculous high stats. DEX, CON, STR were stacked (unlike rangers, you don'tworry about WIS). Archer fighting style and an extra fighting style to boot. GWM with all that on longbow was strong... and level 9 mastery swap was pretty effective for slow then push. Went greataxe for the cleaves when I put the bow away.

 

[Minigiant]

Done this on a Champion.. Rolled ridiculous high stats. DEX, CON, STR were stacked (unlike rangers, you don'tworry about WIS). Archer fighting style and an extra fighting style to boot. GWM with all that on longbow was strong... and level 9 mastery swap was pretty effective for slow then push. Went greataxe for the cleaves when I put the bow away.

The Switch Hitter Champion Fighter is probably top 5 of the best builds if you roll really high on 3 stats in 5e.

The main benefit of being a good but MAD class is if you roll well, you can be a S tier adventurer.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

??? Rangers and Paladins cast using their primary or secondary ability scores, that is two entire martial classes that do this.

Aren't Rangers and Paladins both half-casters as well as being half-martials? Certainly for Rangers, the only reason that Wisdom is regarded as secondary is that it is their spellcasting ability.

If you need it spelled out further: Martial primary and secondary abilities are the physical abilities: STR, DEX and CON.
STR doesn't tend to be a secondary ability: it is generally either Primary or unimportant. DEX is a secondary ability for any class where it isn't a primary instead. Con is a secondary ability for any class, but very rarely actually primary.

Caster secondary abilites are Dex and Con pretty much across the board.

As far as full casters go there are no classes that allow wielding ranged weapons using a primary or secondary ability as a basic class feature.

Spells are a class feature for casters. True Strike is available to a lot of casters to use their primary ability score to make ranged attacks with a weapon.
Otherwise, Dex is a valuable secondary ability and is the default ability to make ranged weapon attacks with.

The only way I know of to get this is through one subclass (Bladesinger) who can only do it part time and does not even get proficiency to do it effectively with martial ranged weapons. A Warlock can also do it with one weapon at a time but only if that weapon is Magic, and niether of them can use masteries.




Exactly! Cantrips are not superior to using weapons, even with the fact you don't have to count inventory for ranged attacks. That is what I have been saying all along.

If you play a PC (martial or caster) who relies on casting Cantrips for ranged attacks with the magic action you are significantly disadvantaged compared to using weapons with masteries and Extra Attack, the fact you don't have to manage inventory does not make up for this.

The only scenario where this is actually likely is with enough warlock levels to get Eldritch and Agonising Blast. At which point you aren't much worse than a martial using a ranged weapon.
Otherwise, a full caster over Tier 1 does not rely on casting cantrips to contribute. They use their actual spellcasting, and just use cantrips to fill in for those times where actually using levelled spells is unnecessary.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Aren't Rangers and Paladins both half-casters as well as being half-martials? Certainly for Rangers, the only reason that Wisdom is regarded as secondary is that it is their spellcasting ability.

If you need it spelled out further: Martial primary and secondary abilities are the physical abilities: STR, DEX and CON.
STR doesn't tend to be a secondary ability: it is generally either Primary or unimportant. DEX is a secondary ability for any class where it isn't a primary instead. Con is a secondary ability for any class, but very rarely actually primary.

Caster secondary abilites are Dex and Con pretty much across the board.

Spells are a class feature for casters. True Strike is available to a lot of casters to use their primary ability score to make ranged attacks with a weapon.
Otherwise, Dex is a valuable secondary ability and is the default ability to make ranged weapon attacks with.

The only scenario where this is actually likely is with enough warlock levels to get Eldritch and Agonising Blast. At which point you aren't much worse than a martial using a ranged weapon.
Otherwise, a full caster over Tier 1 does not rely on casting cantrips to contribute. They use their actual spellcasting, and just use cantrips to fill in for those times where actually using levelled spells is unnecessary.

It’s probably more accurate to say that for most pure martial classes, barring specific subclasses, the mental stats are closer to tertiary stats than secondary ones.

 

[Minigiant]

Tangent: This is why I wished the Playtest Categories of:

• Warrior
• Expert
• Priest
• Mage

had stayed.

Because 5e doesnt use clear Power Sources like 4e. Martial and Caster has many different definitions.

 

[ECMO3]

Aren't Rangers and Paladins both half-casters as well as being half-martials? Certainly for Rangers, the only reason that Wisdom is regarded as secondary is that it is their spellcasting ability.

I would call Rogues and anyone that gets extra attack martials.

Spells are a class feature for casters. True Strike is available to a lot of casters to use their primary ability score to make ranged attacks with a weapon.

Truestrike requires you to use ammunition or throw the weapon if it is a thrown weapon!

The entire discussion is how it is supposedly unfair that characters who make Ranged attacks with Cantrips don't need to account for inventory.

Aside from that Truestrike is available to a lot of non-casters too, as are all Cantrips through a variety of methods and when you said "wielding weapon" I assume you meant using the attack action. Truestrike does give casters (and non-casters) who have it the ability to use a ranged weapon they are proficient in, but it still uses ammunition and still has to be thrown if it is thrown.

The only scenario where this is actually likely is with enough warlock levels to get Eldritch and Agonising Blast. At which point you aren't much worse than a martial using a ranged weapon.

Eldritch Blast is not "wielding weapons", but yes this supports my point Ranged attacks with Cantrips are not as effective as Ranged weapon attacks [using the attack action] with extra attack.

Otherwise, a full caster over Tier 1 does not rely on casting cantrips to contribute. They use their actual spellcasting, and just use cantrips to fill in for those times where actually using levelled spells is unnecessary.

Ok then the fact they have Cantrips for ranged attacks that do not use inventory is not some inherent advantage for casters. .... like I said in the first post on this.