D&D 5E (2024) The Versatile STR Fighter: Melee with a Real Ranged Option

[Zardnaar]

INT and WIS typically dont have many 5e skills associated with fighters and rogue.

No. I wrong.

INT and WIS typically dont have many good 5e skills associated with fighters and rogue except Perception.

lol Animal Handling and History.
unreliable DM fiat Insight.

Intelligence can get used on traps and locks. Arcana is S tier skill along with perception.

Wisdom boosts a critical save.

You still have a 14 dexterity or so.

 

[Minigiant]

Intelligence can get used on traps and locks. Arcana is S tier skill along with perception.

Wisdom boosts a critical save.

You still have a 14 dexterity or so.

Arcana and Investigation are both very DM dependent. And Fighters dont get them.

And "martials" dont boost wisdom thaat high except ranger and monks. 14 WIS without prociency or spells barely helps on those WIS saves.

 

[Zardnaar]

Arcana and Investigation are both very DM dependent. And Fighters dont get them.

And "martials" dont boost wisdom thaat high except ranger and monks. 14 WIS without prociency or spells barely helps on those WIS saves.

Backgrounds can easily get them.

Any skill, lvl 1 spell or cantrip isn't that hard to get these days. Well some are generally exclusive warlock ones. Some eamger/paladin.

 

[ECMO3]

I think this is a pure optimization power gamer take.

Few Rogues or Monks are Mental stat primary. That defeats the point of being one.

To make sure you are tracking what I said; my statement was most Monks and Rogues have it as their highest or second highest stat. So primary stat or secondary stat.

I would agree most Monks do not use Wisdom as their first highest and most Rogues that are not purposely building for maximum damage do not use a mental stat (usually Charisma) first. But a mental stat is typically second for both of those classes.

Most Monk abilities key off of Wisdom and Wisdom boosts their AC. Wisdom is almost always the highest or second highest stat. While I have seen low/mediocre Wisdom Monks, I have seen far more with it as the highest stat than with the 3rd highest.

Mental stats, particularly Charisma, work very well on a Rogue due to the large number of skills they get as well as Expertise and Reliable talent. After Dexterity there is no better stat that fits with the "point of playing one". If you are playing a cliche stereotype fantasy Rogue then from a thematic point of view you could pick Intelligence over Charisma, and I have seen that done for that reason, but Strength and Constitution is really a corner case uncommon type of build.

Under the 2014 rules Constitution was prevalent as a secondary stat for Rogue optimizers in combat-focused games, but it isn't any more because of the extra damage and damage type versatility a Rogue gets off of Truestrike. Being able to do an at-will Radiant damage sneak attack with extra damage to boot at range or in melee is extremely effective. This is a game changer right from low level when facing Zombies like almost all campaigns do.

Note I am talking here I am talking about single classed Characters. Multiclassing changes a lot of this.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I would call Rogues and anyone that gets extra attack martials.

I wouldn't.
Bladesingers, Valour Bards etc are still full casters. The fact that they get given a better version of Extra Attack than the actual martials so cheaply doesn't change that.
Paladins, Rangers, and the Artificer subclasses that get extra attack are all a mix: neither Martial nor Caster, or both Martial and Caster. When comparing Casters and Martials, they can't really be considered.

The entire discussion is how it is supposedly unfair that characters who make Ranged attacks with Cantrips don't need to account for inventory.

Possibly.
But that wasn't what the post that you responded to was about.

Aside from that Truestrike is available to a lot of non-casters too, as are all Cantrips through a variety of methods

Yes, and my point that Truestrike isn't very useful to most martials because it will generally key off a lower score than the martial's basic attack still stands.

and when you said "wielding weapon" I assume you meant using the attack action.

That was you, not me.
I didn't say "wielding weapon", you did. If you meant "using the attack action" you could have just said that.

Ok then the fact they have Cantrips for ranged attacks that do not use inventory is not some inherent advantage for casters. .... like I said in the first post on this.

I don't regard ammunition expenditure as a balancing factor for Ranged weapons vs. Cantrips in most scenarios.
Its obviously a massive issue for Thrown weapons vs those other two of course. Even in 5.5, dealing magical damage is useful.

 

[Minigiant]

You are wrong. to make sure you are tracking what I said, I said most Monks and rogues have it as their highest or second highest stat. So primary stat or secondary stat is what I said.

But this is a thread about Ranged attacks.

I cant see Monks and Rogues taking Magic Initiate for a ranged attack when most will be... Dexterity primary..

Backgrounds can easily get them.

Any skill, lvl 1 spell or cantrip isn't that hard to get these days. Well some are generally exclusive warlock ones. Some eamger/paladin.

Its not about difficulty.

Its that Dex 14+ and bows is better than Cantrips for ranged. Taking Mental stat over 14 for a cantrip isnt worth it unless your subclass benefits. The benefits arent enough unless the cantrips are "free" via multiclassing.

 

[Zardnaar]

But this is a thread about Ranged attacks.

I cant see Monks and Rogues taking Magic Initiate for a ranged attack when most will be... Dexterity primary..


Its not about difficulty.

Its that Dex 14+ and bows is better than Cantrips for ranged. Taking Mental stat over 14 for a cantrip isnt worth it unless your subclass benefits. The benefits arent enough unless the cantrips are "free" via multiclassing.

Yeah cantrips are more for casters and single attack types.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes, and my point that Truestrike isn't very useful to most martials because it will generally key off a lower score than the martial's basic attack still stands.

I would say it is useful on virtually all Rogues (not sure if they meet your martial definition) and can be situationally pretty useful on martials with extra attack.

On other martials it is situationally useful past level 4. Extra attack will outrun it in raw damage, but having the ability to deal Radiate damage at will is nice to have.

It is also typically the best ranged attack on a dex-based melee character who dumps strength and uses a shield (which is itself situational) as it is usually better than throwing 2 daggers. I've also seen it on strength-based sword and board characters to use with a pistol as an available basic ranged option (assuming the DM allows you to carry a loaded pistol).

I agree though in terms of raw damage numbers it is going to be less than a martial can get out of extra attack.

That was you, not me.
I didn't say "wielding weapon", you did. If you meant "using the attack action" you could have just said that.

Here is your exact words in context. I may not understand what you meant, but you said wield weapons:

"When martials can cast using their primary or secondary ability scores in the same way that many casters can wield weapons using their primary or secondary ability scores",

I don't regard ammunition expenditure as a balancing factor for Ranged weapons vs. Cantrips in most scenarios.
Its obviously a massive issue for Thrown weapons vs those other two of course. Even in 5.5, dealing magical damage is useful.

I don't think it is either, so we agree.

If you are focused on ranged attacks and count ammunition, I think it is generally a bigger issue for a bowman than it is for someone who throws weapons. 5 Javelins, 5 hand axes and 5 daggers will be more than enough usually to throw at will with 3 attacks (attack, attack, nick). You might run out in longer battles, but you can also pick them back up off of the battlefield at the rate of 1 per round and you can reuse them battle after battle as long as you don't flee from the battlefield or otherwise lose them.

Ammunition though gets used up very fast if you are firing 2 arrows (and using up 1) every single round. I mean 100 arrows is 100 rounds of combat with extra attack. That is all you will get out of them. That is enough in some campaigns where you have the opportunity to restock, but it is far short in others.

 

[ECMO3]

But this is a thread about Ranged attacks.

I cant see Monks and Rogues taking Magic Initiate for a ranged attack when most will be... Dexterity primary..

I would agree on Monks.

On Rogues Truestrike is now the default for optimizers whether Dex primary or not. If you are talking a single class Rogue there are three ways to get it I know of; Origin Feats, Arcane Trickster or High Elf. Optimizers usually pick Elf also usually with Elven Accuracy feat at level 4.

Assuming point buy, even if you leave the casting stat (usually Charisma) at 16 it is still going to generally do more damage AND offer better damage type than making a regular attack with a higher dexterity at every level from 5 on and even below level 5 having Radiant damage is pretty awesome against many of the enemies you are commonly fighting at those levels (swarms, Zombies, Shadows etc).

At 8th level doing 1d8+5d6+3 and having the ability to choose Radiant or Piercing is going to land more damage in play than 1d8+4d6+5; that is if you go straight to a 20 Dexterity and level 8-9 is the widest the gap gets. At 10th level you have a 18 casting stat and then at 12th you have a 20 and you are doing an extra 2d6 damage with your Cantrip.

Moreover in the situations where it is not better you still have the option to use weapons so you lose almost nothing with this. You get a PC that does more damage and is substantially more versatile in combat while also dominating the social pillar.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I was thinking if you take the archery style for the sometimes you might need to shoot, then you are not taking another style for when you melee. It's a trade-off. Is it worth it for most groups?

Yes.
If you can fire meaningful arrows at the start of the fight, your average damage does not suffer. And -1 AC is compensated by shöting a minion dead before they reach you.