D&D 5E (2024) The Versatile STR Fighter: Melee with a Real Ranged Option

[Zardnaar]

INT and WIS typically dont have many 5e skills associated with fighters and rogue.

No. I wrong.

INT and WIS typically dont have many good 5e skills associated with fighters and rogue except Perception.

lol Animal Handling and History.
unreliable DM fiat Insight.

Intelligence can get used on traps and locks. Arcana is S tier skill along with perception.

Wisdom boosts a critical save.

You still have a 14 dexterity or so.

 

[Minigiant]

Intelligence can get used on traps and locks. Arcana is S tier skill along with perception.

Wisdom boosts a critical save.

You still have a 14 dexterity or so.

Arcana and Investigation are both very DM dependent. And Fighters dont get them.

And "martials" dont boost wisdom thaat high except ranger and monks. 14 WIS without prociency or spells barely helps on those WIS saves.

 

[Zardnaar]

Arcana and Investigation are both very DM dependent. And Fighters dont get them.

And "martials" dont boost wisdom thaat high except ranger and monks. 14 WIS without prociency or spells barely helps on those WIS saves.

Backgrounds can easily get them.

Any skill, lvl 1 spell or cantrip isn't that hard to get these days. Well some are generally exclusive warlock ones. Some eamger/paladin.

 

[ECMO3]

I think this is a pure optimization power gamer take.

Few Rogues or Monks are Mental stat primary. That defeats the point of being one.

To make sure you are tracking what I said; my statement was most Monks and Rogues have it as their highest or second highest stat. So primary stat or secondary stat.

I would agree most Monks do not use Wisdom as their first highest and most Rogues that are not purposely building for maximum damage do not use a mental stat (usually Charisma) first. But a mental stat is typically second for both of those classes.

Most Monk abilities key off of Wisdom and Wisdom boosts their AC. Wisdom is almost always the highest or second highest stat. While I have seen low/mediocre Wisdom Monks, I have seen far more with it as the highest stat than with the 3rd highest.

Mental stats, particularly Charisma, work very well on a Rogue due to the large number of skills they get as well as Expertise and Reliable talent. After Dexterity there is no better stat that fits with the "point of playing one". If you are playing a cliche stereotype fantasy Rogue then from a thematic point of view you could pick Intelligence over Charisma, and I have seen that done for that reason, but Strength and Constitution is really a corner case uncommon type of build.

Under the 2014 rules Constitution was prevalent as a secondary stat for Rogue optimizers in combat-focused games, but it isn't any more because of the extra damage and damage type versatility a Rogue gets off of Truestrike. Being able to do an at-will Radiant damage sneak attack with extra damage to boot at range or in melee is extremely effective. This is a game changer right from low level when facing Zombies like almost all campaigns do.

Note I am talking here I am talking about single classed Characters. Multiclassing changes a lot of this.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I would call Rogues and anyone that gets extra attack martials.

I wouldn't.
Bladesingers, Valour Bards etc are still full casters. The fact that they get given a better version of Extra Attack than the actual martials so cheaply doesn't change that.
Paladins, Rangers, and the Artificer subclasses that get extra attack are all a mix: neither Martial nor Caster, or both Martial and Caster. When comparing Casters and Martials, they can't really be considered.

The entire discussion is how it is supposedly unfair that characters who make Ranged attacks with Cantrips don't need to account for inventory.

Possibly.
But that wasn't what the post that you responded to was about.

Aside from that Truestrike is available to a lot of non-casters too, as are all Cantrips through a variety of methods

Yes, and my point that Truestrike isn't very useful to most martials because it will generally key off a lower score than the martial's basic attack still stands.

and when you said "wielding weapon" I assume you meant using the attack action.

That was you, not me.
I didn't say "wielding weapon", you did. If you meant "using the attack action" you could have just said that.

Ok then the fact they have Cantrips for ranged attacks that do not use inventory is not some inherent advantage for casters. .... like I said in the first post on this.

I don't regard ammunition expenditure as a balancing factor for Ranged weapons vs. Cantrips in most scenarios.
Its obviously a massive issue for Thrown weapons vs those other two of course. Even in 5.5, dealing magical damage is useful.

 

[Minigiant]

You are wrong. to make sure you are tracking what I said, I said most Monks and rogues have it as their highest or second highest stat. So primary stat or secondary stat is what I said.

But this is a thread about Ranged attacks.

I cant see Monks and Rogues taking Magic Initiate for a ranged attack when most will be... Dexterity primary..

Backgrounds can easily get them.

Any skill, lvl 1 spell or cantrip isn't that hard to get these days. Well some are generally exclusive warlock ones. Some eamger/paladin.

Its not about difficulty.

Its that Dex 14+ and bows is better than Cantrips for ranged. Taking Mental stat over 14 for a cantrip isnt worth it unless your subclass benefits. The benefits arent enough unless the cantrips are "free" via multiclassing.

 

[Zardnaar]

But this is a thread about Ranged attacks.

I cant see Monks and Rogues taking Magic Initiate for a ranged attack when most will be... Dexterity primary..


Its not about difficulty.

Its that Dex 14+ and bows is better than Cantrips for ranged. Taking Mental stat over 14 for a cantrip isnt worth it unless your subclass benefits. The benefits arent enough unless the cantrips are "free" via multiclassing.

Yeah cantrips are more for casters and single attack types.