Bonded mark (new spell/item/tradition)

[Kahuna Burger]

This is an idea I floated long ago in a discussion of monster PCs and brought up again on general discussion recently. It is meant to answer the question "how can someon play a goblin/orc/gnoll as a PC when they first have to get to the Red Dragon without being killed by the gate guards of the city or twenty random adventurers on their way in?" I proposed that monster PCs would spend a small amount of their starting gold on a magicly bonded token that acted as their 'papers' in civilized lands. This is a semi-official proposal (I'll make it more official looking as I get feedback.)

Bonded Mark - a bonded mark is an object the size of a large coin enchanted with one version of the Bonded Mark spell. When the person the mark was created for holds it in his hand and speaks his name, a lightly glowing symbol apears on the surface of the mark. In the hand of any other person, it has no magical abilities, though it still detects as magic (faint transmutational and divinitory). While there is talk of some organizations using the spell to create unbreakable passwords and such, the main purpose is to provide 'traveling papers' for members of traditionally evil races who have shown themselves worthy of being trusted in the civilized lands. The symbol that apears indicates what organisation or government has vouched for the individual, and this may in some cases effect just how much they are trusted. Counterfitting a bonded mark is not only difficult (see below) but is a civil crime in all jurisdictions and a personal afront to the organization whose mark was copied.

Spell : Bonded Mark of *****

This is a second level spell for clerics, druids and wizards. It is cast by holding the hand of the person the mark is to be bonded to and holding the mark in the other hand, while the person to be bonded states their name. The spell is technicly many different spells, one to create each mark. Clerics who cast the spell can only create a mark with their holy symbol on it, druids create a mark based on the tratition they trained in, and a different wizard spell is required to be learned for each mark. Creating a new mark, or counterfitting a bonded mark requires a wizard to dedicate time money and XP as if researching a news second level spell (or half that amount if he already has learned a different bonded mark spell).

[open to suggestions on material components or other costs of the spell]

Game effects:
A player who wishes to play a member of a race listed in the SRD as "usually" or "always" evil should purchase a bonded mark out of his or her starting gold. If the PC is good aligned, this Mark can be from the Mortalists, any good aligned god (mongrel being one of the most common) or the road warden/oakenheart lodge and costs the price of a signet ring, plus whatever material components are required for the spell. If the PC is lawful or true neutral, the Mark can be from any city state or possibly a trading concren and is more expensive. A lawful evil or chaotic neutral PC can obtain a Mark only with the permission of two judges and an appropriate penalty that effects both the character's finances and RP.

-kahuna burger

 

[Kahuna Burger]

After some consideration, I'm thinking a neutral pc should perhaps just have to pay for the spell to be cast, which would be 60 gp under most circumstances. that would be pretty steep for first level characters, but makessense from a practical standpoint... hmmm.....

kb

 

[El Jefe]

My first impression is that this is good, though it could use some tweaking.

Deeper thoughts: The bondmark is only as good as the issuing authority. So, some places might accept any bondmark, and some would only accept one from a list of trusted issuers.

Erm, there are several alignments that don't appear to qualify even with two judges and a penalty. Is that deliberate?

Just the cost of getting a 2nd level spell cast is likely to outweigh the cost of any material component for such a thing. It does seem stiff for a beginning character. I wouldn't hit anyone up for more than about 50gp or so for the signet ring, and it probably should be a lot less. Maybe it really does pay to be good (or just cost more to be evil!)

I also thought about what could be done about this problem if the bonded mark spell didn't exist (why would people spend time and money to research a spell to solve a problem that didn't exist?). My thoughts are: Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos: Essentially, a series of first level spells that solves the problem neatly. However, these are negated by Undetectable Alignment. The flip side of that is that Undetectable Alignment costs more than both the bonded mark and the Detect (Various) spells. Another possibility would be Zone of Truth. Same level as bonded mark, but it could be negated by a Will save. I guess it comes down to what is your level of paranoia: are you more concerned that someone made their will save on a Zone of Truth and lied about their alignment, or that some trusted person or authority was hoodwinked into vouching for someone of poor character? Maybe Zone of Truth or Detect (Various) would be prerequisites to getting a bondmark, especially if someone is really suspect. Now, THAT would drive the price up...

Now, what would be the RP penalty that use of the bondmark would drive? Would the mark set off some kind of alarm (noise, smoke, odor) if the bearer violated some oath? Or perhaps the bondmark could subject the bearer to some sort of low-level geas.

Perhaps the most important aspect of this is, how does it play in Orussus? I think we established that Orussus is a pretty lawful city, but that it seems to tolerate visitors of all alignments. Maybe the guards might let a orc or two pass, but close the gates at the approach of a couple of dozen orcs bearing weapons. If it's not a prerequisite to get into Orussus, it's not much of a deterrent to someone having a character from an evil race. However, if it is required for access to a place of adventure, that has some interesting role-playing possibilities, as in: "I found that if I wasn't caught stealing, I could come and go to the Red Dragon as I pleased. I went on several small adventures in and under the city, and in the surroundings. But when I wanted to travel to XXXX with my friend Gephard, I found that I had to get one of those bond...marks of bond...things just to get past the XXXX city gates!"

 

[Kahuna Burger]

My first impression is that this is good, though it could use some tweaking.

Deeper thoughts: The bondmark is only as good as the issuing authority. So, some places might accept any bondmark, and some would only accept one from a list of trusted issuers.

Erm, there are several alignments that don't appear to qualify even with two judges and a penalty. Is that deliberate?

well, if you really are chaotic evil or true evil, the mark is pointless, since the racist assumptions about your character are correct.

Just the cost of getting a 2nd level spell cast is likely to outweigh the cost of any material component for such a thing. It does seem stiff for a beginning character. I wouldn't hit anyone up for more than about 50gp or so for the signet ring, and it probably should be a lot less. Maybe it really does pay to be good (or just cost more to be evil!)

To me, its the difference between convincing a charitable organisation tht you will improve the lives of those around you if they help you move past the stigma your birth gives, and convincing a government or trader's guild that you merely won't murder and eat their babies if they let you move freely to seek work. IMHO one should be significiantly more expensive than the other.

I also thought about what could be done about this problem if the bonded mark spell didn't exist (why would people spend time and money to research a spell to solve a problem that didn't exist?). My thoughts are: Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos: Essentially, a series of first level spells that solves the problem neatly. However, these are negated by Undetectable Alignment. The flip side of that is that Undetectable Alignment costs more than both the bonded mark and the Detect (Various) spells. Another possibility would be Zone of Truth. Same level as bonded mark, but it could be negated by a Will save. I guess it comes down to what is your level of paranoia: are you more concerned that someone made their will save on a Zone of Truth and lied about their alignment, or that some trusted person or authority was hoodwinked into vouching for someone of poor character? Maybe Zone of Truth or Detect (Various) would be prerequisites to getting a bondmark, especially if someone is really suspect. Now, THAT would drive the price up...

but the relitive authenticity of a bonded mark can be confirmed by any gate guard. (pc holds the mark and says his name, guard observes symbol, suspicious gaurd holds mark and says same name to make sure its not a keyword activated item faking a Mark, PC moves on) Whereas the other solutions require a wizard at every gate, or suspicious characters to be brought to the wizard over and over again by the new guard who doesn't recognize them. Eventually the wizard says "can't I just give them something to show I already examined them?" and thus the Bonded Mark is born.

Now, what would be the RP penalty that use of the bondmark would drive? Would the mark set off some kind of alarm (noise, smoke, odor) if the bearer violated some oath? Or perhaps the bondmark could subject the bearer to some sort of low-level geas.

well, that was for lawful evil type PCs who had, say, gotten the bonded mark from a wealthy merchant to work for him in some semi-shady capacity, and got the PC his traveling papers as a result. Such a character would be more seriously beholden to the person who got them the mark.

Perhaps the most important aspect of this is, how does it play in Orussus? I think we established that Orussus is a pretty lawful city, but that it seems to tolerate visitors of all alignments. Maybe the guards might let a orc or two pass, but close the gates at the approach of a couple of dozen orcs bearing weapons. If it's not a prerequisite to get into Orussus, it's not much of a deterrent to someone having a character from an evil race. However, if it is required for access to a place of adventure, that has some interesting role-playing possibilities, as in: "I found that if I wasn't caught stealing, I could come and go to the Red Dragon as I pleased. I went on several small adventures in and under the city, and in the surroundings. But when I wanted to travel to XXXX with my friend Gephard, I found that I had to get one of those bond...marks of bond...things just to get past the XXXX city gates!"

well, I orriginally floated the idea as a post hoc explaination of why Orussus was so open to begin with. I think the primary creative force behind any given location would determine how much importance they place on bonded marks vs the gut instinct of the gate guards.

kb

 

[SlagMortar]

I don't feel strongly for or against this proposal. However, there are many suitable answers to the question, "how can someone play a goblin/orc/gnoll as a PC when they first have to get to the Red Dragon without being killed by the gate guards of the city or twenty random adventurers on their way in?" Examples, "My buddy, Chip the Human, escorted me into Orussus when he learned I was interested in adventuring. He introduced me to Joe." or "I, Galahad the goblin paladin, traveled to Orussus with a halfling caravan. I came upon the caravan being attacked by gnolls and saved the day. They were more than happy to point me in the direction of the Red Dragon Inn once we arrived in town."

It seems highly likely that any "monster race" adventurer who decided to go to Orussus must have had peaceful contact with humans in the past. If not, why would they be going to Orussus in the first place? This provides plenty of opportunity for a friendly escort to the Red Dragon.

I don't really see how the problem of goblins/orcs/gnolls is any different than half-orcs.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

two p.s.'s

Deeper thoughts: The bondmark is only as good as the issuing authority. So, some places might accept any bondmark, and some would only accept one from a list of trusted issuers.

I think this could definitly play into things and makes the mark a players chooses part of the characterization. An ultra lawful city might look on a bonded mark of Mongrel with an attitude of "great, itinerate do-goody with possible vigilante overtones", while a super do gooder pc group who sees that the new guy has the bonded mark from ye olde true nuetral trading guild could say "so you won't kill us in our sleep, but you're just in this for the money, huh?"

On the subject of consequences of the marks, I'm thinking perhaps that since it's bonded to you and your name, the person who cast the Mark spell would have some advantages in casting any sort of divination/location spell to find you if you got into trouble with the law.

kb

 

[orsal]

Game effects:
A player who wishes to play a member of a race listed in the SRD as "usually" or "always" evil should purchase a bonded mark out of his or her starting gold. If the PC is good aligned, this Mark can be from the Mortalists, any good aligned god (mongrel being one of the most common) or the road warden/oakenheart lodge and costs the price of a signet ring, plus whatever material components are required for the spell. If the PC is lawful or true neutral, the Mark can be from any city state or possibly a trading concren and is more expensive. A lawful evil or chaotic neutral PC can obtain a Mark only with the permission of two judges and an appropriate penalty that effects both the character's finances and RP.

I hope this is just a "f'rinstance". Every issuing authority could have its own standard, and if the issuing authority is the civic administration, the standards should vary from city to city. While the cult of Mongrel is well known and its bonded marks respected everywhere, a relatively lax city with notorious corruption might find that its marks don't clear up everyone's suspicions. You get the picture -- if we don't try to set worldwide standads, we get so much more potential from this idea.

I'd recommend approving this proposal and then let subsequent proposals determine the standards to be met to get various bonded marks. The City of Orussus' standards, as well as those of the specific organizations which KB mentioned, are a few that we might want to determine soon.

 

[El Jefe]

well, if you really are chaotic evil or true evil, the mark is pointless, since the racist assumptions about your character are correct.

Um, well, maybe pointless to the issuing authority, but not pointless in terms of game play. Right now, I can't see anything stopping anyone from trading in a 3rd level character to generate a chaotic evil gnoll ranger, and marching him into Joe's for a pint of ale and a chance to get into a party to double cross down the road. I suppose Joe could say "We don't serve your kind!", and there are the usual persistant world reasons to keep the gnoll's chaotic evil behavior directed more toward NPCs than party members, but aside from that I don't see why or how it couldn't be done. The proposal would definitely put a stop to that.

I'd also think that a (for example) gnoll PC would be sufficiently different from others of his own kind to make adventuring plausible. Meaning that he might still be rotten to the core, but that he would tone it down and at least act responsible around humans, or at least the humans that could spoil his plans (like town guards, officials who could deny him rights, Joe, party members, etc.) I mean, most gnolls wouldn't dream of just strolling into a human city in broad daylight...what would be the point of that? Only an exceptional gnoll would have a reason to be there in the first place.

To me, its the difference between convincing a charitable organisation tht you will improve the lives of those around you if they help you move past the stigma your birth gives, and convincing a government or trader's guild that you merely won't murder and eat their babies if they let you move freely to seek work. IMHO one should be significiantly more expensive than the other.

Ok, that's fair, but it's backwards. I'd think it would take a fair amount of personal sacrifice (which in game terms turns out to be alignment restrictions) to get a deep discount on a pass. In the game reality, it would cost very little to get the "Ok, I won't kill babies" version...but it would be worth less, too. So maybe the difference would be that the more evil characters can get through the gate to Joe's, but wouldn't be trusted in many other places; whereas the good characters can get the equivalent of "back stage passes" for their good alignment...gaining access to more private areas and trusted (as a relative stranger) with more responsibility. I think this appeals more to me than just a "fine" in terms of starting money.

but the relitive authenticity of a bonded mark can be confirmed by any gate guard.

Ah, so it serves a similar function as money. Money is not wealth, it is a token of wealth (especially paper money). Likewise, the bond mark is a token of character and trustworthiness. That makes sense.

Let me move these next two around a little.

well, that was for lawful evil type PCs who had, say, gotten the bonded mark from a wealthy merchant to work for him in some semi-shady capacity, and got the PC his traveling papers as a result. Such a character would be more seriously beholden to the person who got them the mark.

On the subject of consequences of the marks, I'm thinking perhaps that since it's bonded to you and your name, the person who cast the Mark spell would have some advantages in casting any sort of divination/location spell to find you if you got into trouble with the law.

Let me try to connect the dots here. The extra consequence to the shady PC is that yes, you can get the bond mark, but if you abuse it, the guards are going to go to your employer. I'd assume the employer would end up with some sort of penalty, probably a fine, and that means that the employer A), would use the tracking power of the bond mark to help the guards help him get rid of an unprofitable employee, or B), would use the tracking power of the bond mark to hunt down the employee himself, with rather unpleasant consequences for the PC. I'd think that only someone both shady and powerful themselves would dare issue a bond mark to a member of an evil race...someone like the local organized crime leader, perhaps operating under color of law but making grey market activities available for a fee. There's definitely room in Orussus for someone like that, since it's a good way for the city fathers to control and regulate quasi-criminal activity. The other possibility is that someone very desperate would turn to a member of an evil race as a matter of last resort. That might not be much of a consequence for a PC, but it might make for interesting game play.

well, I orriginally floated the idea as a post hoc explaination of why Orussus was so open to begin with. I think the primary creative force behind any given location would determine how much importance they place on bonded marks vs the gut instinct of the gate guards.

Against that backdrop, I think we're wandering into the territory where perhaps Creamsteak and some of the other Judges should weigh in. I sort of look at Orussus as his creation, so he should get a crack at defining which way the city would decide.

 

[Manzanita]

I like this idea. At this point, we've basically accepted the idea that PCs can come from virtually any race. So we should have some agreement as to how they can join adventures. I think it too odd to have an orc or goblin simply walk into Orussus to look for work. Thus I would like to see some sort of in-game justification. This is a good one.

I don't know that we should require the PC to pay for this mark out of staring gold. But I like the idea of having to find a sponser, with some sort of obligation in return. This is a good bit of background material that can be mined by DMs to make their plots richer.

I'm not motivated to work out the details currently, but in general, I support this proposal. At some point, a PC might want to cast this spell, so eventually we should get the details ironed out.

 

[Roger]

This is an idea I floated long ago in a discussion of monster PCs and brought up again on general discussion recently. It is meant to answer the question "how can someon play a goblin/orc/gnoll as a PC when they first have to get to the Red Dragon without being killed by the gate guards of the city or twenty random adventurers on their way in?"

I'm not entirely sure if this is a bug or a feature.

Yes, a gnoll PC will get a hard time in a human town. On some level, though, it seems like that's at least part of the point of deciding to roleplay a gnoll instead of a half-elf. If everyone treats the gnoll as just a big furry guy, it seems like there is less of a point to it all.

On the other hand, if a gnoll PC tries to bluff his way into the gnoll bandit camp, more power to him. But I don't think you can reap that benefit while simultaneously avoiding the drawbacks.

Do we really need a new game mechanic for this? Let's crunch out the numbers:

Let's say you've got a goblin trying to pretend to be a halfling. Disguise is a class skill for bards and rogues (along with Bluff.) First level, say a +2 from Charisma, four ranks. No skill focus quite yet. So a base +6 to Disguise.

Disguising yourself as a different race is -2. We can let our character buy a disguise kit, which provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks (exhausted after ten uses.)

Furthermore, the Disguise skill description says:

Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks.

Our goblin/faux-halfing takes 10 on his Disguise check, and can generally walk around town without much to worry about.

But if even that's not good enough, I might propose something like the following:

FEAT: Wolf in Sheep's Clothing
Description: You are adept at passing yourself off as belonging to a different race.
Benefit: Pick a race of the same creature type as yourself. Through years of practice, you have learned the nuances of pretending to be a member of that race.

For the purposes of imitating that race only, Disguise and Bluff are considered class skills for you. If these skills are not otherwise class skills for you, your ranks are halved (as per a cross-class skill) if using these skills for a purpose other than imitating your selected race.

The usual -2 penalty to Disguise for disguising youself as a different race does not apply to you when you disguise yourself as a member of your selected race.


(Not really a formal proposal per se, but I'll throw it out there. If there's a strong positive response, we can work on it.)


I kinda like this direction a bit more, but that's just my two cents.


Cheers,
Roger