D&D (2024) The new spell creation rules

[Yaarel]

Is having every spell in your spellbook heavily modified so that concentration breaking doesn't matter anymore, friendly fire doesn't matter anymore, energy resistances practically don't matter anymore..... is that broken or just "the expectation of high level play".

We are talking levels 17 to 20, the "Legendary" tier?

I dont see a problem.

With regard to game engine design, the purpose of "Concentration" is to prevent a mage from layering too many powerful spell effects at the same time. That important restriction continues to remain true even in the highest tier.

The possibility of interrupting a Concentration spell is mainly for narrative flavor. By level 17, I hope every fullcaster has already made an effort to shore up Constitution saves along with Concentration protecting features, to make negligible the possibility of any interruption.

Preventing friendly fire is powerful. But it doesnt actually add extra damage, and in that sense is balanced enough. Meanwhile to leave allies unharmed by a Fireball is great flavor, because it dramatizes the mastery of magically harnessing raw explosions. This is a "Legendary" Wizard indeed.

Bypassing energy resistances is fine at this highest tiers, when most opponents exhibit some kind of damage resistance. Meanwhile, the Wizard would still need to prepare several versions of the same spell, in order to benefit: Fire-ball, Acid-ball, Cold-ball, Lightning-ball, etcetera. To redundantly use up the number of possible spell preparations, is a wash.

Again, I dont see a problem.

Shrug, its a massive power boost. When people talk about the Simulacrum cheese, they still consider it broken even for that high a level.

Every spell needs to calibrate that so that it is roughly balanced with every other spell that is in the same spell slot.

A spell that is underpowered either needs a boost or else a demotion to a lower slot where it is more competitive alongside the spells there.

A spell that is too powerful either needs a nerf or a promotion to a higher level.

Each spell stands on its own. Designers needs to doublecheck every spell, on a case-by-case basis, to ensure it meets the expectations for the level it becomes available.

Regarding Simulacrum specifically, its description might need more cautious wording. Personally I havent seen players abuse it, but I can see how one might.

 

[Incenjucar]

Throwing out any pretense of balance at level 17 just reinforces wizard dominance.

 

[tetrasodium]

Because you have ignored THE reason to play a Wizard, the ritual casting and the ability to add spells to your spellbook.

The ability for a wizard to ritual cast any spell in their book is HUGE. It gives them a large amount of spells they never have to prepare, and that are always available to them.

The ability to add more spells to their book is HUGE. It gives them way more spells known than a sorc can dream of, and they can afford to have the niche utility spells that are only used once in a while.

Everyone is focused on modify spell, but honestly the bigger spell may be Memorize Spell. Its a ritual, so in a meer 11 minutes the wizard can swap any spell for one in their book. Its the ultimate in utility, oh we need divinations today, I get it. Oh wow we have to go to a fire cave, yeah let me get protection from energy going, just a quick stop all.

I think that you are overlooking the reality grounding much of the discussion with that note about what "everyone is focused on". The wizard can't make an arcana check to learn a spell they saw getting cast. In order to copy a spell into their spellbook for that memorize->modify spell combo to matter beyond their base levelup gained spells a wizard needs to first find a scroll or spellbook with a spell they lack. Sure it says scroll or spellbook... but the sorcerer bard cleric druid paladin ranger & at least the 2014 EK/AT don't use spellbooks... A wizard is only copying those from another wizard at the table. On the loot side of things though, 5e is not 2e or 3.x, I'd not be surprised if there were more scrolls in a single dungeon from TyP's reprints than entire 5e HC adventures if not multiply non-TyP HC adventures combined. Spellbooks are in an even more dire situation of being almost exclusively end boss (or close) loot too late to matter even if found.

People aren't bringing it up because wotc has made it clear that spellbooks & scrolls should be nearly impossible to find. Even if the wizard does find a scroll or spellbook that they don't already have & didn't need to pay for it's still not useful for that memorize spell scenario without spending a good bit more gold that everyone else (including the sorcerer) is going to be spending on magic items that usually provide a direct bump in PC power

 

[Stalker0]

I think that you are overlooking the reality grounding much of the discussion with that note about what "everyone is focused on". The wizard can't make an arcana check to learn a spell they saw getting cast. In order to copy a spell into their spellbook for that memorize->modify spell combo to matter beyond their base levelup gained spells a wizard needs to first find a scroll or spellbook with a spell they lack. Sure it says scroll or spellbook... but the sorcerer bard cleric druid paladin ranger & at least the 2014 EK/AT don't use spellbooks... A wizard is only copying those from another wizard at the table. On the loot side of things though, 5e is not 2e or 3.x, I'd not be surprised if there were more scrolls in a single dungeon from TyP's reprints than entire 5e HC adventures if not multiply non-TyP HC adventures combined. Spellbooks are in an even more dire situation of being almost exclusively end boss (or close) loot too late to matter even if found.

People aren't bringing it up because wotc has made it clear that spellbooks & scrolls should be nearly impossible to find. Even if the wizard does find a scroll or spellbook that they don't already have & didn't need to pay for it's still not useful for that memorize spell scenario without spending a good bit more gold that everyone else (including the sorcerer) is going to be spending on magic items that usually provide a direct bump in PC power

This ignores though the key final aspect of balance in 5e.... the DM. Classes aren't just about balance, they are about hooks, ways for the Dm to make the classes each feel cool and special.

Take the monk, often feels underpowered. However, if the DM makes it where speed is a big factor in certain fights, and has lots of ranged attacks where the monk can use their ability....suddenly they are looking pretty solid. A ranger that is never in nature isn't going to feel as strong as the ranger where the DM throws some nature adventures into the game. A fighter might be given a cool unique sword or something, etc.

And the same for the wizard, a good Dm is going to throw some scrolls in the game for the wizard to find, because that is part of their hook, part of what makes them feel cool and special.

The key is that the hook is there for the DM to use, now good Dms will know to use these hooks better than others, but you always want that there, that is part of good class design.

 

[Yaarel]

Throwing out any pretense of balance at level 17 just reinforces wizard dominance.

To be clear, I expect the noncasters to have feature that are equally powerful. A "legendary" Fighter should be Legendary.



To be fair, the Fighter class stops being "realistic" around say level 8. But if the point of the Fighter class is to be "realistic", then it probably should be a Prestige Class that only has levels 1 to 8. After that, the character is forced to multiclass in order to continue to character level 20.

But if the Fighter is supposed to be a base class with levels 1 to 20. Then higher level stuff needs to stop worrying about being "realistic" and start worrying about doing some impressive stuff that is appropriate at the highest levels. Seriously, a level 17 Fighter needs class features that are equivalent in power to casting the Wish spell every day. Having extra hit points is less than enough to meet this Fighter design goal.

 

[Yaarel]

Every character should be able to do Ritual Casting for free.

This is a trope, a character picks up a mysterious book of magical rituals and tries to preform one.

If a spell has a Ritual, it is a utility, and intended to balance well enough and avoid combat abuse. Let any player spend the 10 minute to try cast it.

Maybe use the skills Arcana for Arcane rituals, Nature for elemental rituals, Survival for earth-plant-animal rituals, Religion for Divine rituals, and so on?

 

[Incenjucar]

To be clear, I expect the noncasters to have feature that are equally powerful. A "legendary" Fighter should be Legendary.



To be fair, the Fighter class stops being "realistic" around say level 8. But if the point of the Fighter class is to be "realistic", then it probably should be a Prestige Class that only has levels 1 to 8. After that, the character is forced to multiclass in order to continue to character level 20.

But if the Fighter is supposed to be a base class with levels 1 to 20. Then higher level stuff needs to stop worrying about being "realistic" and start worrying about doing some impressive stuff that is appropriate at the highest levels. Seriously, a level 17 Fighter needs class features that are equivalent in power to casting the Wish spell every day. Having extra hit points is less than enough to meet this Fighter design goal.

We're not going to see legendary fighters with the current generation of WotC employees.

 

[Yaarel]

We're not going to see legendary fighters with the current generation of WotC employees.

Maybe. I tend to blame player feedback that "feels" that a nonmagical flavor needs to plateau around level 8, and that the entire game of D&D should end then.

In any case, Legendary Fighter is a requirement of the gaming engine. IF there is such thing as a level 17 Fighter, THEN it must have a design space equivalent to casting Wish every day.

 

[Stalker0]

Seriously, a level 17 Fighter needs class features that are equivalent in power to casting the Wish spell every day. Having extra hit points is less than enough to meet this Fighter design goal.

In the city of Taranya, there is the greatest fighting force in the multiverse, the Ataridan. And among the Ataridan, there is one that stands above them all, Bayoc Kahn.

Yet among all of the mages that Taranya can bring to bear, it is a fighter that stands above them all? Why?

Because this 20th level fighter has:
1) Indomitable became legendary resistance, and he has magic resistance.
2) He has legendary actions for movement and attack
3) His sword when it hits magic counts as a 9th level dispel magic (or 9th level disintegrate for effects that don't work with dispel magic), he can use this as a reaction to counter spells thrown out him, strip buffs from enemies, undo summoned creatures, and cut through walls of force like butter.

No magic can stop him, no lesser warrior can beat him, THAT is the legendary fighter that makes wizards cower.

 

[Yaarel]

In the city of Taranya, there is the greatest fighting force in the multiverse, the Ataridan. And among the Ataridan, there is one that stands above them all, Bayoc Kahn.

Yet among all of the mages that Taranya can bring to bear, it is a fighter that stands above them all? Why?

Because this 20th level fighter has:
1) Indomitable became legendary resistance, and he has magic resistance.
2) He has legendary actions for movement and attack
3) His sword when it hits magic counts as a 9th level dispel magic (or 9th level disintegrate for effects that don't work with dispel magic), he can use this as a reaction to counter spells thrown out him, strip buffs from enemies, undo summoned creatures, and cut through walls of force like butter.

No magic can stop him, no lesser warrior can beat him, THAT is the legendary fighter that makes wizards cower.

My hope is, the design makes it possible that if a Wizard and Fighter of the same level combat each other, there will be 50% 50% chance of either being the victor.

(Heh, Bayoc Kahn reminds me of Mashle in the anime.)