Just say NO to buff items, the crack of D&D.

Zad said:
But that's not what you posted :)
But my main point is that you can't just say "it's silly" and remove them without realizing the consequences to the game.

I hope that is not what I said. I think it is silly BECAUSE of its consequences.
The consequences of ubiquitous Stat Boosting Items are...

1. An Arms race between players (and the DM). In order to stay viable it is not enough to go up levels, but one must min-max items (as well as feats and class choices). If you need the stat boost just to stay average (for your level) then you simple raise the bar without providing any actual benefit for acquiring the treasures.

2. Stat Boosters overshadow characters inherent abilities. My concept of a big strong fighter is not some guy with a pair of nice gloves. Not that my concept is the only possible one. But the more items duplicate and replace class abilities, the more likely people become homogenous.

3. Reduces choices for DMs to give treasures. Am I a bad DM if I don't give out X number of stat boosters every third adventure?

Those to me are bad consequences of the existing system. That is why a house rule is an attractive rule.
 

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So CZ pray what shall we call this crusade?

I recomend "Going back to Nutkinland", where as we know balance is tossed out the window...
 

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scholz said:
I hope that is not what I said. I think it is silly BECAUSE of its consequences.
The consequences of ubiquitous Stat Boosting Items are...

1. An Arms race between players (and the DM). In order to stay viable it is not enough to go up levels, but one must min-max items (as well as feats and class choices). If you need the stat boost just to stay average (for your level) then you simple raise the bar without providing any actual benefit for acquiring the treasures.

And eliminating stat boosts changes this how? If level one characters need to be able to face orcs, level five characters need to be able to face manticores, level 7 characters chimeras, and level 14s old white dragons, then there's going to be an escalation of power levels. There's no two ways about that. If your level 14 characters are happy facing unleveled orcs, you can eliminate the escalation but otherwise it will be there.

This is not really an arms race. In an arms race, both sides have to develop tougher weapons and armor in order to match threats from the other side. In D&D, the DM already has weapons/armor available for all levels of PCs; the PCs need to develop the capabilities to deal with the ones the DM uses and they expect the DM to use. Unless one is on a fixed schedule of threat advancement (whether or not the PCs advance) this can't be characterized as a race.

Finally, removing elements of item optimization does not decrease the pressure for other optimizations. On the contrary, it increases it. If the PC has x areas that can be optimized in order to survive at APL y and can accomplish that with a degree of optimization Z, then removing an area of optimization so that the PC now has only x-n areas of optimization means that, in order to reach level of effectiveness Y, the PC needs to be optimized to the Z+n instead of simply Z.

Without pseudomathematical terms, it can be expressed like this. ATM, characters need not be perfectly optimized in order to work well in D&D. A fighter 12 with a 16 starting strength (19 after 3 level bumps), vanilla feats (Power attack, cleave, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, iron will, lightning reflexes, great fortitude, Endurance, Die-hard, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Sunder) can play the role of a fighter perfectly well. Maybe not as well as an Ex-Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Paladin 3/Templar 1/Hospitaler 2 with optimized feats and items but certainly well enough to get the job done. If a 12th level Fighter 2/Sorceror 1/Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Bard 4/Ranger 2 with Skill Focus: Underwater basketweaving, Combat Casting, Spell Focus: Divination, and Eschew Materials has trouble filling any role, I would see that as optimization for weakness rather than a lack of optimization. So, there is either no such thing as a non-optimized character--just characters optimized for different things or unsuccessfully optimized--or we have to admit that character number 1 (the fighter 12) is the "non-optimized" base-line of what we expect a 12th level D&D character to be like.

2. Stat Boosters overshadow characters inherent abilities. My concept of a big strong fighter is not some guy with a pair of nice gloves. Not that my concept is the only possible one. But the more items duplicate and replace class abilities, the more likely people become homogenous.

You must be stuck in 2e if you think that 3.x stat boosters make original scores irrelevant. The fighter with strength 16+6 (belt)=22 is still noticably weaker than the half-orc with strength 22+6 (belt)=28. 3.x Statboost items enhance and emphasize class abilities rather than duplicating and replacing them. (Though it must be said that a fighter without a way to increase his strength is likely to be overshadowed by a martial cleric who has many ways to magically increase his strength).

The other methods of dealing with the increasing challenge of higher level D&D are actually more homogenizing. Higher base stats drives everyone closer to the 18,18,18,18,18,18 setting. Conan-style universal stat increases also eliminate some of the stat-pressure by opening feat chains dependent upon secondary stats to everyone.

3. Reduces choices for DMs to give treasures. Am I a bad DM if I don't give out X number of stat boosters every third adventure?

I don't see this at all. There are lots of ways to get stat-boosters other than finding them in random treasure hordes. One can gather information and find people who have them to sell (quite possibly other adventurers who either need to raise cash (maybe for a raise dead) or already have such items), join an order of knighthood or a wizard's guild that provides contacts for the crafting of such items, commission wizards or priests to make them, or take the feats and make them yourself. A DM who refuses to make stat-boosters available despite his players' characters needing them (which may be a real or merely perceived need) is neither more nor less of a good DM than the DM who refuses to make magical halberds available despite the fact that the fighter is specialized in halberds.

However, one ought to point out that a DM who's giving "interesting" or random treasure has a lot of ways to make up for the lack of stat-boosters. Giving the fighter a +3 halberd instead of a +2 halberd is almost the same effect as giving him some gauntlets of ogre power. Giving the rogue +3 mithral chain mail instead of a +2 chain shirt is almost as good (defensively) as giving him gloves of dexterity. The treasure/level guidelines are a guide not a straitjacket. Heck, the DM could even incorporate 2e style items like the Mauler's Arm (a +2 mace that raises the wielder's strength to 18) or Angurvaerdil (+4 longsword that raises wielder's strength to 20) if he wants to avoid standard stat-buffs. (Although such ability score setting items go a long way toward overshadowing characters' base attributes--one of the reasons I prefer the 3e statboost items to 2e ones).
 

scholz said:
But end up making every fighter identical, and every cleric identical. If you need high stats to be different something is wrong. Of course, with the practical requirement that everyone have a prime stat buff, you simply raise the bar and push everyone to eleven. I think it should be interesting when the big bad fighter has a 20+ strength, she would be the talk of legends, yes? No, she would be just a plain old fighter like any other. Boring.

Huh? Ability boosting items don't make every fighter or every cleric identical. The bruiser who started with an 18 strength and 6 int, 8 wis, 6 charisma will be a bruiser with a 28 strength (+4 stat boosts, +6 belt) at 16th level with statboosting items. The finesse fighter who started with a 15 strength, a decent dex, and a 13 int will probably be a finesse tripper with a 23 strength (+4 stat boosts, +6 belt) at 16th level with statboosting items.

Similarly, the self-buffing melee cleric may start out with a 14 strength and 15 wisdom and, at 16th level, have an 18 strength (+4 belt) and 23 wisdom (+4 stat bumps, +4 periapt) at 16th level. (Or he might have 18 strength (+4 belt), 19 wisdom (+4 stat bumps), and 20 con (+6 amulet) at 16th level). The spellcasting focussed cleric is likely to have a 10-14 strength (+nothing because all he needs to do is carry his armor without being heavily encumbered) and a 27 wisdom (17 +4 stat bumps, +6 periapt) at 16th level.

The characters don't look remotely alike. On the other hand, if you substitute for statboosts by allowing extremely high base stats (let's say 42 or 54 point buy), then all of the characters will start to look alike because it's pretty easy to max out the stats that certain character concepts need. The brute fighter will have 18 strength, 12 dex, 18 con, 10 int, 12 wis, 8 charisma on 42 points and on 54, he'll go up to 18 strength, 16 dex, 18 con, 12 int, 14 wis, 8 cha. The finesse fighter will go up to 18 strength, 14 dex, 16 con, 14 int, 12 wis, 8 charisma at 42 points and 18 strength, 16 dex, 18 con, 14 int, 12 wis, 8 cha at 54 points. At that point, he doesn't look very different from the brute does he?

I was thinking of the 3.0 versions. I am not sure you and I are at odds here. I have no real problem with the 3.5 versions, though I would prefer if they didn't appear in items. That seems to make the high abilities common place.

I still don't think there was any inherent problem with the 3.0 buffs. They didn't so much make high ability scores commonplace as change the level of variability with ability scores. 8th level characters might have 14 to 27 strengths depending upon how they were designed and what magic was operating. In 3.5, the 8th level fighter might have between 16 and 24 strength--a much more narrow range.

I do like the idea of Buffs in principle. But I do not like them in 3.0 or as Items. The all day buffs lack flavor. When they are cast every day, and there is no viable alternative. A caster who did not prepare them would be culpably irresponsible to her fellow party members. Buffs should be actions that take place in adventures, not before them.

I disagree on the necessity of daily buffs in 3.0 A character could responsibly pursue strategies that minimized or did not use them at all. (A hasted wizard throwing 2 glitterdusts per round could be as effective as one who cast Cat's Grace four times and at higher levels, 2 enervations per round, could be as effective as two empowered bull's strengths. Such strategies were more effective than buffing over one or two fights and became less effective than buffing over a long series of fights).

Anyway, I don't think there's any such general principle that buffs should take place in adventures rather than before them. Spells like Detect Scrying, Contingency, Mage Armor, Energy Buffer, Nondetection, Misdirection, Undetectable Alignment, Mind Blank, False Vision, Protection from Arrows, False Life, etc are generally cast before adventures--and indeed derive most of their benefit from the fact that they can be continuously in effect--and I don't think anyone really has a problem with that. The stat-buff spells don't seem so different to me.
 

Plane Sailing said:
Just in case you are interested the proper word is moot (which comes from the sorta town councils, called "moots" who would meet to resolve problems in c9-10th century England).

I only mention it because i think it is an interesting word and wasn't sure whether you had mis-heard it at one point hence used the term for "unable to speak". Rarely a condition on messageboards, naturally ;)
You're correct and I apologise for posting with only a few hours sleep and not enough caffine in my system. I did know of the origin of the word, being a disgustingly anglophilic american. Where do you think my handle came from? Cheers!
 

I think Cyberzombie needs to try the decaf... ;)

But related to the topic...

I am the GM. I. Am. God. No matter how high a stat is I can "out do" the PC's. I can overcome any bonus, any BAB or any AC. No matter how obscenely high it is. I rarely do this because this is a game reflecting heroic fantasy. Let the PC's trounce all over the monsters on a daily basis. I can create situations where stat bonuses are moot. :D I don't mind the buff spells duration changes that took place in 3.5.

I have increased some of the utility spells durations though, i.e. Fly, Invisibility, etc.
 

Not much to contribute to the discussion, except to provide a link to an excellent post that The Sigil made which analyzes some numbers on town sizes and magical items from the DMG.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17162

The conclusion that I personally drew from the post is that the "magic-mall" idea isn't a problem from the position of *shudder* verisimilitude (according to the DMG), in so much as things can be realistic in a fantasy game.
 

MeepoTheMighty said:
"Buying" an item can also include "comissioning" an item or "paying the party mage to make an item." Or do you not allow those either?
I'd of course allow the latter, but I think of that as a more involved process than just plopping down the gold. I think comissioning should largely be a matter of roleplaying: mages won't do the work for just anyone, and may ask for special favors in addition to the cost...
 

I dislike both stat boosting items and spells. its a purely thematic issue, I want the charcters to be defined by their abilities almost completely, with stuff as a minor bonus. To make sure there aren't a lot of problems with this I tell players outright, and tend to give a higher than average point buy allowance to let players have character concepts with two or more important stats without falling back on boosting a couple constantly to be viable.

Also thematicly, I'm big into the idea that stat boosts are adictive and in some cases overpowering (going from below to above average in any mental stat in one standard action should blow your mind - I had a low level low wis character who I had planned a small scale nervous breakdown for should she ever get a +3 or better wisdom boost, due to suddenly realizing the choices she could have made better in her youth...).

Obviously I don't think all day buffs are the answer. More stat increases and more ballanced scores to begin with are the key for me.

Kahuna Burger
 

Sir Whiskers said:
Another option is to create one universal buffing spell. It can buff one stat, caster's choice at time of casting. The caveat? Only one such spell can be active on a creature at any one time. A second casting on the same creature automatically dispels the previous casting.
Arcana Unearthed does something similar, except the spell automatically enhances the target's highest stat, and there are higher-level versions that give higher bonuses.
 

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