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Small Weapons?

Storyteller01 said:
Since the weight of any piercing blade is closest to the handle (regardless of size) all I would have to do is adjust the handle.

That's alright, but you need someone to adjust the handle. As long as the longsword's handle is for a medium creature, it's a longsword. Once the handle is adjusted for a small creature, then it becomes a greatsword for small creatures.

Storyteller01 said:
As for size mechanics, how many people here have played with toy swords meant for your children? Was it that hard? Did you feel overly burdened with the change in size or weight? Granted, toys are not weighted the same as a weapon, but how is it different from using a bat made for you and using a bat made for your children (one handed, no less)?

That's very different. A toy is a toy. A weapon is a weapon. When you use a weapon with a handle too thin or too thick for you, there is a lot of strain in your fingers after a few minutes. I am trained in the use of weapons, and know the importance of a properly sized handle. Make it too thick, and you will strain your finger joints, probably hurting your hand to the point that you can barely use it for two or three days. Make it too thin, and you will crush your fingers after a while, with risk of dislocating them or breaking their bones, because they press against the inside of your hand on every hit or whenever your weapon receives an impact; also, besides crushing your fingers, you can't hold the weapon tightly enough, causing it to accidentally slip and fall off from your hand after a while, when your hand gets tired.

Besides that, when the handle size is inappropriate, you don't feel the same confidence when you attack. You inconsciously try not to get hurt.

I guess from all those facts is where the -2 comes from.

Storyteller01 said:
Now reverse that. Is it hard to use a metal pipe with a 4" diameter? Any mugger can tell you that it isn't, and most one handed swords won't weight more than 4 to 5 lbs. Even that is concidered heavy...

Yea, it's easy to beat someone with a 4" diameter metal pipe, but get some actual training in weapons for five years and try to use such an object as a weapon. You will see the huge difference.

Storyteller01 said:
Now if he ran into a 'halfling shortsword' or a small short sword, then yes, he could use it without penaly, as its stats are identical to that of the dagger he has been trained to use. :)

Well, as I said, if the handle is too thin, it just doesn't feel right, your fingers get crushed on every impact, and it's likely to accidentally slip. Change the handle or wrap it in thick cord, and guess we can call it a dagger then, but remember it's not instantly adjusted when you grab it, you need someone to do the work of adjusting it, and that will take at least a few minutes.
 
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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Storyteller01 said:
The only difference is that one is called a shortsword, the other a dagger. Make a big knife and call it a dagger. If someone else calls it a shortsword, is it?

Is 'someone else' the DM? If so, then yes, it's a shortsword.

On this note, why can't a wizard use a small shortsword if he is proficient with a dagger? The main difference is that one has a range increment while the other does not. Both are peircing, and both have the same threat range (I believe). A wizard cannot use a weapon that has the exact same specs just because one is called 'dagger' and the other is called 'shortsword'?

A Medium wizard can use a small shortsword just fine.

... at a -6 penalty.

-Hyp.
 

Fieari

Explorer
Where's that comparison picture of Conan (or Hercules or some TV barbarian hero, whoever) holding a greatsword in one shot, and in the other, holding a knife photoshopped to be the same size as that greatsword (a large knife)? That usually quells opposition to the 3.5 weapon sizing rules I've found... or it did with my players, anyway.

Anyone got the link?
 

FireLance

Legend
I think this was last posted by Aaron2 in post #71 of this thread.

I don't think it worked then. The discussion still went on for another 37 posts.
 

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Testament

First Post
My love of the new rules for weapon sizes comes from one fact. The smalls can now use reach weapons. Before they were completely unable to do so, and it makes no sense to me whatsoever that the small races wouldn't create such superalative defensive weapons. Nor could they use any double weapons, not even the lowly quarterstaff.

And why did they only have shortbows? Would they not create their own sized version of a longbow? And if their longbow is our shortbow, where's their shortbow?

It clears up a lot of holes in the game's logic for me anyway.
 

Ketjak

Malicious GM
Pardon me and at the risk of being spanked by a moderator, this is a <DEXTER>Stooopid</DEXTER> argument.

Realistically the argument about equivalencies at different sizes holds no water - a shortsword for a human is not a dagger for an ogre which is also not a longsword for a goblin, no matter that they are roughly the same size. They are weighted differently, have different cutting surfaces, and don't scale appropriately as per Tetsubo's comments and the photoshopped Conan. ;)

Mechanically the 3.5 solution is more elegant, benefits all races outside the Medium "norm," and accounts for the problems that arise from assuming such weapons can be scaled "realistically."

Hypersmurf wins. Not only is his argument backed by the rules in both versions, but any challenges issued to opponents get addressed by "DM fiat" at best - they cannot address the problems using 3.0 rules that the 3.5 rules solve. "I'm right because I say I'm right" doesn't cut it in the Rules forum, folks. :lol:

Back to lurking now...

- Ketjak
 



Storyteller01

First Post
Sheng Long Gradilla said:
That's alright, but you need someone to adjust the handle. As long as the longsword's handle is for a medium creature, it's a longsword. Once the handle is adjusted for a small creature, then it becomes a greatsword for small creatures.



That's very different. A toy is a toy. A weapon is a weapon. When you use a weapon with a handle too thin or too thick for you, there is a lot of strain in your fingers after a few minutes. I am trained in the use of weapons, and know the importance of a properly sized handle. Make it too thick, and you will strain your finger joints, probably hurting your hand to the point that you can barely use it for two or three days. Make it too thin, and you will crush your fingers after a while, with risk of dislocating them or breaking their bones, because they press against the inside of your hand on every hit or whenever your weapon receives an impact; also, besides crushing your fingers, you can't hold the weapon tightly enough, causing it to accidentally slip and fall off from your hand after a while, when your hand gets tired.

Besides that, when the handle size is inappropriate, you don't feel the same confidence when you attack. You inconsciously try not to get hurt.

I guess from all those facts is where the -2 comes from.



Yea, it's easy to beat someone with a 4" diameter metal pipe, but get some actual training in weapons for five years and try to use such an object as a weapon. You will see the huge difference.



Well, as I said, if the handle is too thin, it just doesn't feel right, your fingers get crushed on every impact, and it's likely to accidentally slip. Change the handle or wrap it in thick cord, and guess we can call it a dagger then, but remember it's not instantly adjusted when you grab it, you need someone to do the work of adjusting it, and that will take at least a few minutes.

I too have been trained in weapons use. Several in fact. :)

Italian dueling daggers have a handle close to a 1/4" inch in width. This facilitate increased mobility with a lighter grip. the impact is reinforced and spread between the ring/pinky finger and the pad of the index finger. Since this is a slicing weapon, a proper hit produces little impact compared to a hammer or mass based weapon. This reinforcement is all you need. (matter of fact, a bludgeoning weapon operates on the same principle).

Also consider those who choke up on their dagger blades. The handle they are using is roughly 1/8" wide at best, yet they make effective strikes against tendons and arteries.

As for using weapons that are too wide, loosen your grip! Such pressure is not needed, and that kind of pressure will tire you out after several hours, even with a normal weapon. All that is needed is sufficient energy (number one rule for using a katana: Don't grip with the right hand. It is there for guidance and control. Use only enough force to maintain that path. You should barely feel the contact, even if the weapon is deflected [you use your whole body to absoeb this impact] The force of impact comes from hips thought the palms of your hands [reinforced by both the ulna and radius in the forearms]). Even with an axe or club (been trained with the use of ASP's and batons) such grip strength is not needed.

Also concider that a bat is also a weapon (a club). If you can hold an aluminum bat meant for a child in one hand, you are holding the equivalent of a halfing great club. If you don't believe me, talk to parents who had to take their children home/to the hospital because another child hit them with said bat. Now add that smaller races are stronger and more experienced overall...

I personally possess a stilleto style weapon (yea I know, anecdotal) whose handle is 1/2" by 3/8". I can also tell you that children as young as 3 have no problem gripping the weapon (step daughter found it. Thank God she didn't figure out how to undo the sheath!! Have to keep it in a safe now...)

As for the picture of Conan, I agree that a Huge dagger cannot be wielded by a human. This is why I have the house rule that a character cannot wield a weapon created for a creature two size catagories larger than yourself. My point is that weapons that are so similar as to have IDENTICAL stats (including size) should not produce penalties because one is named something different from the other.

Inconfident attacks are the fault of the mind, not necessarily the weapon. If this were the case, then daggers would also require a -2, as I would be afraid of being hurt by a larger weapon. I can't attack without getting that close.

Also, if you speak with those who have decades of experience with weapons training, they will tell you one thing: all weapons of a particular type operate in the same fashion. To prove this, an Iaido school will give a student approaching 5th Don a truely crappy blade. Loose handle, SMALL handle for a two handed strike. The point: if you know the fundamentals, such differences should not matter. You should be able to make the cut regardless.


As far as I have been told, the rules changes was to help create realism. I would say that this is not the case. With such a huge overlap of weapons in the real world (remember, some Chinese schools used STATUES as weapons, well over 4" wide), this is just not the case. IMO, this is a case where we have over classifed the situation. If the argument is that the rules are needed because for the noncore races,... well guess I can't say much against that. :)

Good gaming folks!
 
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