Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

I'm not messing around with the core classes. (page 174, 175.)
With the gestalt rules, though, they might want to rename the core classes, since each core class has the abilities of any two core classes.

Prestige Classes:

I like. I like. I like.
Did I mention I like?
Not because it allows you to be superpowerful (it doesn't.)
I like it because it allows flavor.
20 years of coconuts is giving me the fits! said Yosemite Sam. Well, 20 years of playing Generic Joe Fighter, Generic Joe Mage, Generic Joe Paladin, Generic Joe Monk (gads), Generic Joe Thief, has given me the fits, too.
Now, I can customize my character, and make him or her more like I imagined him or her to actually BE. I'm not stuck in a straitjacket.
It's just a matter of finding the right prestige class, and I know there are hundreds (if not thousands) of them out there to choose from (DM permitting.)

Arcane Archer: Ok, she can only use some of her abilities once per day. But what an ability that is. If she started as a rogue, it counts as a sneak attack (the poor target in the deepest most protected room of his castle, not expecting an arrow to come flying through the walls, is DEFINITELY denied his Dexterity bonus!!!)
Being able to produce +5 arrows at will is no small feat. LOL.
Being able to put spells on an arrow is no small feat either (the lord in his most heavily concealed room in the entire castle, is hit by the arrow, suffers a sneak attack, AND the fireball detonates to boot. )

Arcane Trickster: As it says, assassins sometimes opt for this class.
You can stack PrCs indefinitely, and they never count against your limit for multiclassing.
Otherwise, no comments. I really have no strong impressions on this PrC.

Archmage: This PrC is reserved for high level characters, so I really can't say much about it. But Arcane Reach is very nice. Incidentally, does Arcane Fire allow a saving throw?

Assassin: He's back. Evil, low-down, no good, vile, he was kicked out of the game in 2nd edition, but now back with a vengeance. And he's a lot better than the 1E assassin, I think. Take out the evil requirement and kill someone requirement, and you could create the D&D equivalent of James Bond. The Death Attack is a classic. Study victim, shoot victim, victim dies. And oh boy, the assassin can use poison!
Again, it would be humorous, to see a party with a non-evil assassin and a paladin in it.

Blackguard: The Death Knight in training. Good for evil parties. Real bad for good parties, rotten for paladins (when you smell the fumes of gasoline, do not light a match ...)

Dragon Disciple: For some reason, people like half-dragons. I never did, but others do. I guess this is the route for the ordinary character to that end (gaining the Half-Dragon Template.)

Duelist: I maintain that the best defense is a good offense, so I would not take this PrC. After all, if you are not killing the monsters, they ARE killing you and your friends. Just a thought.
Now, if there is a PrC out there that allows a really nasty attack AND the ability to gain up to 20 in AC (while attacking) I'll take it!

Dwarven Defender: Dwarves can be paladins in 3rd edition. But they need not be Generic Joe Paladins. The Dwarven Defender is an example of the flavor I am talking about. He's not just a Paladin, he's a Dwarven Paladin. (Or, at least, something close to that.)

Eldritch Knight: The fighter/mage revisited. Advantage: You gain the spells and BAB, and the best of the saves of both classes. Disadvantage: You don't get the Fighter Feats, Metamagic Feats, or other special class abilities.

Hierophant: The Clerical equivalent of the Archmage. I like. Where was this when Edena reached 12th or 13th level?

Horizon Walker: I don't have much to say on this one. Yes, we did lots of Planar Travel, but things are different in 3rd Edition.

Loremaster: I don't see the advantages of this one. If anyone wishes to point out the nifty benefits of this PrC, please do so.

Mystic Theurge: The cleric/wizard? Anyone?

The Red Wizard: You don't want to go there, unless it's an evil party. Circle magic is uniquely Faerunian (witness the Mythals.) But I wouldn't take this PrC if I was playing an evil character. Too well known and infamous. (Every Harper around follows you around like a dog.)

Shadowdancer: Could someone explain the merits of this PrC to me? Their success in using it? What classes it stacks with nicely? It seems like a good PrC, but I request input on it. Anyone?

Thaumaturgist: The Tholian concept was Let's You and Him fight. That seems to be an especially potent idea in 3rd Edition. But is it worth it, to become a Thaumaturgist?

I COMPLETELY agree with you, Silveras, on the use of terminology in 3rd Edition.
It isn't a good idea to say to yourself: My attack bonus is +10. It's a good idea to say: My base attack bonus is +6, my strength bonus is +3, and my weapon enhancement bonus is +1.

Just my opinion, but I think you are very right.

3rd Edition is chalk full of exacting terminology, and if you confuse the terminology, you're heading into quicksand, IMO. (Uh (player above in a hurry, tired, distracted, new to the game)... I have a +10 to attack ... and, uh ... that's right, I get +6 BAB in addition to that, and didn't I have a +3 sword? ... yeah, and my weapon enhancement bonus is 1 - it must be a masterwork weapon, I forget ... yeah, it's gotta be, and ... what was I just saying? ... uh yeah, I'm +10 to hit, and another +6 for BAB and +3 for the sword and +1 for masterwork and so I get a +20 to hit! Wait a minute, it couldn't be +20, for I had a +10 ... uh, if I had a +10, where does my +3 and +1 - it WAS a +1, right? and my +3 for strength, and ... (The DM sighs and speaks) Uh Houston, we have a problem ...)

Hey there William.
What do you think of the PrCs in the DMG? What comments would you make? What experiences have you had with how fun and how mechanically effective they are?

Edena_of_Neith said:

Hey there William.
What do you think of the PrCs in the DMG? What comments would you make? What experiences have you had with how fun and how mechanically effective they are?

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Hi, Edena. Good to see this thread is still going strong!

Generally, I like the PrCs -- especially the Loremaster and the Archmage. I did have a high level spellcaster who took levels in the Archmage PrC. The Mastery of Elements ability was very useful for my character, as was Mastery of Shapping. Spell Power is also somewhat useful to overcome spell resistance.

Arcane Reach can be very effective as touch spells can go up to 30 feet (60 feet if you take the ability twice). The PrC grants many abilities, but has trade offs as well..

I rather like the Loremaster PrC, as it can be used to model very scholarly characters. I have seen some good uses of some of the other PrCs such as shadowdancer.

Edena_of_Neith said:

The 'Pity the Poor Bear' scenario.

When the dire bear approached (but could not yet see into the clearing) Narrin and Claire hid at the edges of the clearing, weapons and spells ready.
When the bear came into the clearing, both Claire and Narrin attacked by surprise.
Lidda had held her action. Seeing Claire and Narrin striking the bear by surprise, and figuring it would survive and kill at least one of them, she took off her two sneak attacks with her short bow against the bear.
And finally Grom, who was following the bear, came rushing into the glade in time to finish off the bear.

And which point, Grom demands the death of the elf, Claire.
Narrin sorta likes Claire, but Grom is a friend - and Grom cannot be deterred in this case - so Narrin moves to attack Claire. And now Claire must fight both Narrin and Grom.
Lidda decides to save Claire. She will take her blackjack, and whack Narrin and Grom both into unconsciousness. Somehow. Perhaps she should soften them up with sneak attacks first? ... (Hennett doesn't show up, in this scenario.)

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I just thought I'd mention if you sneak attack with a sap the extra damage from sneak attack is considered subdual damage as well.

It's fairly easy for a rogue to knock out opponents.

(taking a side jaunt, reading the Book of Exalted Deeds.)

To make a very, very, very, very long and touchy subject short:

Good is solidly defined in 3.5.
It pays to be Good.

In my honest opinion ...

If you use the rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness as written ...

You need to create 6 new alignments:

Exalted Lawful Good
Exalted Neutral Good
Exalted Chaotic Good
Vile Lawful Evil
Vile Neutral Evil
Vile Chaotic Evil

No humanoid race is naturally any of these alignments. Dwarves are lawful good, but not exalted lawful good. Elves are chaotic good, but they are not exalted chaotic good. Orcs are chaotic evil, but not vile chaotic evil. And illithid are lawful evil, but not vile lawful evil.
Exalted and Vile represent something beyond a normal mortal mentality. They represent a philosophy and way of life meshed with supernatural and divine force, to produce a being who is supernatural.

And incidentally, no exalted character would ever allow a prisoner to be taken away to jail, in any of the campaign settings I know of.
An exalted character, would take a prisoner to an exalted jail or exalted prison (think of a jail so comfortable that it makes a luxury hotel look like a prison in comparison) there to convert the being to good alignment.

Edena_of_Neith said:

Loremaster: I don't see the advantages of this one. If anyone wishes to point out the nifty benefits of this PrC, please do so.

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It's not so much the benefits as the lack of drawbacks. If you're a core arcane spellcaster, you lose essentially nothing by taking a full caster progression class. Why not gain some interesting abilities and bardic knowledge, provided it fits your character concept? A wizard loses some metamagic or item creation feats (in practice rarely much of a loss), but a sorcerer loses absolutely nothing.

If your game is 'core only,' you'll likely see a fair number of Wiz/Loremaster/Archmage combos, simply because there's so little mechanical benefit for not following that path.

Edena_of_Neith said:

I COMPLETELY agree with you, Silveras, on the use of terminology in 3rd Edition.
It isn't a good idea to say to yourself: My attack bonus is +10. It's a good idea to say: My base attack bonus is +6, my strength bonus is +3, and my weapon enhancement bonus is +1.

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Well, it's a good idea to keep track of both the +10 and the stuff that makes it up. On the character sheet I use it would look something like this:



The +2 under "Enhance" is of course the weapon's enhancement bonus, and the +1 under "Misc" is for Weapon Focus. The value you actually use is the +12, which is why it's in a thicker box.

The sheet in question is the "Ultimate Character Sheet" from http://www.necromancergames.com/freestuff.html, by the way. When you get to higher levels, it's not a bad idea to download the Ultimate Combat Sheet from the same place as well, it makes it easier to keep track of various modifiers.

MoogleEmpMog said:

It's not so much the benefits as the lack of drawbacks. If you're a core arcane spellcaster, you lose essentially nothing by taking a full caster progression class. Why not gain some interesting abilities and bardic knowledge, provided it fits your character concept? A wizard loses some metamagic or item creation feats (in practice rarely much of a loss), but a sorcerer loses absolutely nothing.

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The sorcerer doesn't lose anything by taking Loremaster, but he does have to pay a higher price for it. He needs 10 ranks in two Knowledge skills, three metamagic/item creation feats, Skill Focus (any one knowledge skill), and seven divination spells, at least one of which is 3rd or higher level.

The sorcerer only gets one knowledge skill as a class skill in the first place, so if he wants a realistic chance of getting two at 10 ranks he needs to take at least one level of something else (likely bard or wizard) - or hold off on taking the class until 17th level. And multiclassing as a spellcaster is generally not a good option from a powergamer's perspective, especially not as a sorcerer who already gets his highest-level spells one level after the other three primary caster classes.

Three metamagic/item creation feats basically take up all his feats up to 6th level - the wizard gets Scribe Scroll and one more as bonus feats, so he only has to use one of his "regular" feats on it. And a 6th level sorcerer only knows 14 spells in the first place, one of which is 3rd level - learning the required divination spells will take up half his spell selection. A wizard will pretty much learn seven divination spells without even trying - he gets three for free (detect poison, detect magic, and read magic), and getting more spells is a lot easier for a wizard than a sorcerer (a 7th level wizard knows at least 17 spells plus all the 0th level ones, and getting more only costs him 150 gp per spell level).

When all is said and done, the only reasonable way for a sorcerer to become a loremaster in the core rules is to get there as a sorcerer 6/wizard 1 - and if you're going to take wizard levels, you might as well go all-out wizard. That said, it is somewhat easier for a sorcerer to do it in Eberron, where there's a feat that gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills (Education - I'm pretty sure it's around in FR too), which would enable a human sorcerer to enter Loremaster after 7th level, or a nonhuman after 9th.

This pattern can be seen in many other arcane-themed PrCs, but few are so obviously slanted in favor of the wizard over sorcerer.