Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Agemegos]

I withdraw my statement about the usefulness of the DDG Feats.
Unless you got all the DDG Feats at 1st level (which is totally illegal, not to mention impossible) forget it. Being a Generalist in 3.5 doesn't pay.

Very true. You can only do one thing at a time. Better to do the same thing well time after time than to do a lot of different things in sequence, all of them badly.

Besides, some of your 'DDG' feats, although their names sound as though they ought to be basic fighting techniques, are in fact quite useless for straight fighters. For example, 'weapon finesse': it sounds as though it ought ot make your attacks more accurate. But in fact for fighters (whose strength should always be higher than their dexterity) it makes their attacks less accurate, and is completely useless.

Following my logic further, multiclassing is a bad idea. Someone pointed out fighter/mages stank in 3.5. It seems I must agree with his assessment.
The exception to this would be classes that stacked with each other, such as rogue/barbarian (?, or wizard/sorcerer?, fighter/ranger?) Even then, it sounds risky.

Multiclassing is a really bad idea for sorcerors and wizards. Sorceror/wizard abilities don't stack in auseful fashion (eg. a 10/10 sorc/wiz can cast only 5th-level spells, which aren't going to cut the mustard in a 20th-level threat environment). Fighter and paladin levels stack pretty well (though not as well as they did in 3.0, when paladins were heavily front-loaded). The ranger's special abilities aren't able to be used in the fighter's armour. I think ranger/barbarians might be okay, also ranger/rogues (two-weapon fighting with sneak attack?).

The way I put it is this. Versatility is an expensive luxury in D&D 3.x. You might have to do it if you have to function alone. But you do better to specialise and then buddy up with a group of allies who cover your weaknesses.

 

[kenobi65]

3rd Edition is chalk full of exacting terminology, and if you confuse the terminology, you're heading into quicksand, IMO. (Uh (player above in a hurry, tired, distracted, new to the game)... I have a +10 to attack ... and, uh ... that's right, I get +6 BAB in addition to that, and didn't I have a +3 sword? ... yeah, and my weapon enhancement bonus is 1 - it must be a masterwork weapon, I forget ... yeah, it's gotta be, and ... what was I just saying? ... uh yeah, I'm +10 to hit, and another +6 for BAB and +3 for the sword and +1 for masterwork and so I get a +20 to hit! Wait a minute, it couldn't be +20, for I had a +10 ... uh, if I had a +10, where does my +3 and +1 - it WAS a +1, right? and my +3 for strength, and ... (The DM sighs and speaks) Uh Houston, we have a problem ...)

Chuckle. I do have this problem with some of my players, who never put any ranks into Math. I've got a couple of people who just can't get their bonuses straight, and never are able to remember where certain bonuses came from...so, they're never sure if something new will stack, or not.

 

[kenobi65]

Multiclassing is a really bad idea for sorcerors and wizards.

IME, multiclassing is not a great idea, 9 times out of 10. About the only time I see it as *not* significantly lowering the capability of the PC in question (compared to a single-classed PC of the same level) are:

- If you're multiclassing specifically to meet the requirements for entry into a Prestige Class. Even then, you are often suffering a short-term "effectiveness loss", in exchange for the promise of the abilities of the PrC later on.

- If a "dip" into another class gives you abilities that complement your primary class. For example, a bard who takes a level in Sorcerer now can use pretty much any arcane scroll or wand. Someone earlier in this thread posted how he likes to give fighters several levels in Rogue, providing them with sneak attack without too much of a sacrifice in raw combat power.

As Agemegos notes, multiclassing can be especially painful for spellcasters, as you wind up delaying when you get new levels of spells. PrCs like Mystic Theurge exist in an attempt to make multiclassed spellcasters a bit more feasible, but you're still delaying when you pick up higher-level spells by several levels.

 

[IcyCool]

Arcane Archer: Ok, she can only use some of her abilities once per day. But what an ability that is. If she started as a rogue, it counts as a sneak attack (the poor target in the deepest most protected room of his castle, not expecting an arrow to come flying through the walls, is DEFINITELY denied his Dexterity bonus!!!)
Being able to produce +5 arrows at will is no small feat. LOL.
Being able to put spells on an arrow is no small feat either (the lord in his most heavily concealed room in the entire castle, is hit by the arrow, suffers a sneak attack, AND the fireball detonates to boot. )

Ranged sneak attack is limited to targets within 30ft.

Arcane Trickster: As it says, assassins sometimes opt for this class.
You can stack PrCs indefinitely, and they never count against your limit for multiclassing.
Otherwise, no comments. I really have no strong impressions on this PrC.

Arcane Trickster is where you go if you want to go the old thief/wizard route.

Archmage: This PrC is reserved for high level characters, so I really can't say much about it. But Arcane Reach is very nice. Incidentally, does Arcane Fire allow a saving throw?

Arcane Fire requires a ranged touch attack to hit, does not allow a saving throw, and does not allow spell resistance. It's pretty good.

Dragon Disciple: For some reason, people like half-dragons. I never did, but others do. I guess this is the route for the ordinary character to that end (gaining the Half-Dragon Template.)

And despite the spellcasting requirements to get into the class, Dragon Disciple is a terrific fighter class, and a terrible spellcasting class.

Duelist: I maintain that the best defense is a good offense, so I would not take this PrC. After all, if you are not killing the monsters, they ARE killing you and your friends. Just a thought.
Now, if there is a PrC out there that allows a really nasty attack AND the ability to gain up to 20 in AC (while attacking) I'll take it!

Take a look at the Bladesinger in Complete Warrior.

Eldritch Knight: The fighter/mage revisited. Advantage: You gain the spells and BAB, and the best of the saves of both classes. Disadvantage: You don't get the Fighter Feats, Metamagic Feats, or other special class abilities.

You also still have trouble casting in armor. Take a look at the Spellsword in Complete Warrior for help on this.

Hierophant: The Clerical equivalent of the Archmage. I like. Where was this when Edena reached 12th or 13th level?

The big difference here is that the Hierophant doesn't advance spellcasting like the Archmage does.

Mystic Theurge: The cleric/wizard? Anyone?

They aren't nearly as overpowered as you might first think.

Shadowdancer: Could someone explain the merits of this PrC to me? Their success in using it? What classes it stacks with nicely? It seems like a good PrC, but I request input on it. Anyone?

The big benefit here is the Hide in Plain Sight ability. As long as you are within 10ft. of a shadow (not your own shadow), you can make a hide check as if you were concealed. Ninja Vanish!

 

[kenobi65]

{Mystic theurges} aren't nearly as overpowered as you might first think.

Indeed...when that class first came out, I know more than a few players who looked at it and said, "CHEESE!" I mean, full spellcasting progression in two classes? Tons of spells? Must be broken, right?

Not really...

The earliest you can qualify to enter Mystic Theurge is at character level 7 (wizard 3 + cleric or druid 3). At that point, you're effectively casting spells as a Wizard 4 and as a Cleric (or Druid) 4, and thus have 2nd-level spells for both classes. At that same point, if you'd single-classed as a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, you'd have 4th level spells, so you're getting the versatility of two spell lists (and a lot more spells) in exchange for the power level of the higher-level spells...not to mention losing advancement in the non-spell abilities of your base classes (turning undead, wild shape, bonus wizard feats, familiar / animal companion advancement, etc.)

Most opinions I've read recently feel that Mystic Theurge is appropriately powered, if not a little underpowered.

Also, the feat that makes Mystic Theurge work quite a bit better is Practiced Spellcaster...it increases the effective caster level of a multiclassed spellcaster; in the case above, if the Mystic Theurge above took Practiced Spellcaster twice (once for Wizard, once for Cleric), although he'd still only have 2nd level spells, he'd cast all of his spells as Caster Level 7, rather than Caster Level 4.

 

[Storm Raven]

Arcane Archer: Ok, she can only use some of her abilities once per day. But what an ability that is. If she started as a rogue, it counts as a sneak attack (the poor target in the deepest most protected room of his castle, not expecting an arrow to come flying through the walls, is DEFINITELY denied his Dexterity bonus!!!)
Being able to produce +5 arrows at will is no small feat. LOL.
Being able to put spells on an arrow is no small feat either (the lord in his most heavily concealed room in the entire castle, is hit by the arrow, suffers a sneak attack, AND the fireball detonates to boot. )

For many spells, the imbue arrow ability isn't that great. Fireball, for example, already has a significant range - at least 500 feet for a 5th level caster, which means that even with Far Shot, the arcane archer is going to be firing his composite longbow out into the fourth range increment, and incurring a -6 penalty on his attack roll to match that and have to make an attack roll with a spell he otherwise wouldn't need to. In most cases, he would be better off simply casting fireball.

Duelist: I maintain that the best defense is a good offense, so I would not take this PrC. After all, if you are not killing the monsters, they ARE killing you and your friends. Just a thought.
Now, if there is a PrC out there that allows a really nasty attack AND the ability to gain up to 20 in AC (while attacking) I'll take it!

Most fighting oriented characters should have an AC in the 20s by mid-level anyway.

Loremaster: I don't see the advantages of this one. If anyone wishes to point out the nifty benefits of this PrC, please do so.

A wizard can qualify with minimal effort, and probably has the bulk of the prerequisites without trying by the time he's 7th level anyway. It is a low-cost alternative for wizards.

Shadowdancer: Could someone explain the merits of this PrC to me? Their success in using it? What classes it stacks with nicely? It seems like a good PrC, but I request input on it. Anyone?

It is good at being sneaky in the shadows.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(reads and listens to your posts)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(I am starting into Magic of Incarnum now. I will post comments and questions on this book soon.
To the extent that I could, I have read the PHB and DMG and tried to understand them. I have read your posts above. I will make further comments and questions on those.
The discussion on the Book of Exalted Deeds I have placed in the my other thread, and intend to leave it there.
Although I will say once more: my hat is off to those who wrote the BOED, along with all of those who have written the current 3rd edition system. My hat's off to all of you. I am sincerely impressed. I wish my one vote counted for more: I wish more people would embrace our Hobby.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Player's Handbook: Polymorph allows you to assume various forms. It allows the Extraordinary attack forms of the creature, but not any other Extraordinary Abilities. It allows no Supernatural Abilities.

I see that the Druid Wildshape is now equivalent to the Polymorph spell.

What were the Druid Wildshape rules in 3.0? I don't have 3.0, and wish to compare.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Anyone?