Find the Anime Challenge

Sabathius42 said:

*snip*

Things that make this "anime influenced"
1. Mid-karate-kick pose
2. "Exploding" background
3. Mindflayer with twin katanas and bow, ala a samurai
4. Mindflayer with impossible to use polearm weapon that has an energy aura
5. Ninja toe-boots

Do I get a point for that?
DS

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Again, I ask the same question: if the image is depicting a character as described, and that written description is similar to anime tropes, is it inspired by anime? Our Mindflayer here is a ninja. So, it makes sense that he's going to be dressed LIKE a ninja. Also, he's traveling the Plane of Shadow, so, the background is... well... shadowy. The pose is stock martial arts and can be found in pretty much any comic book. The energy aura makes sense for a creature that carries a magic weapon with some sort of energy attack (I don't have this book, but, I'll guess that the mind flayer comes with a stock cold weapon of some sort). As far as the impossible polearm, well, I've seen some collections of polearms in museums that actually look very similar to this. Granted, the museum was in Korea, so, certainly an Asian flavour to the weapon, but, Asian =/= Anime.

/edit - as far as the pose goes, I just happened to watch 300 last night. Compare the pose of our Mind Flayer with the young Leonidas pose as he defends himself from the wolf in the beginning of the movie.



Anyone have the MMV so we can compare the image to the actual stats of the creature?

Hussar said:

I asked this before and no one answered me, so I'll ask again. If the thing being described fits a certain artistic style by virtue of its description, can we say that art based on that description is anime inspired? For example, elves are described as having pointy chins, look effeminate and have overly large eyes. They've been described this way for 30 years in D&D. Does that make every pic of elves anime inspired since the features actually resemble anime features?

I'm not trying to be snarky at all, I'm really curious.

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I thought people already did explain this?

The answer to your question is no. Elves have been drawn all through those 30 years of description and not all of them have had what appears to be Anime/Manga influence.

The answer lies within the proportions, and perspective of the subjects in the image.

Again, illustration like all art forms follows a set of rules. Rules that are basically concpets gathered by artists throughout time, and studied, so that the artform can be manipulated, and made to do what the artist wants. (Kind of like magic in D&D. )

If you break the rules you've either messed up the drawing, or you're attempting to use the broken rule to highlight something in your piece. Anime/Manga seems to be almost an embrace of the latter. Stylizing the image with slightly skewed proportions, and perspective in order to highlight features of the character or artwork.


These two "rules" are kind of in bed together. Messing with one can mess with the other as well.

Ever see the old medieval paintings where they didn't know about perspective? Everything looks 2d, and as a result people look either HUGE or super small.

Now, as for the elves.

Ever see a person with a pointy chin in RL?

Ever see an effeminate man?

They people exist without being Anime characters come to life. You could also paint them without them appearing to turn into an anime character. The mere idea of pointy chin, big eyes, or overly effeminate men does not indicate Manga.

It's HOW the proportions are used to depict those features.

It's when a chin is stylistically TOO sharp. Or the eyes are so big they COULD NOT effectively exist within the perspective of the character. Stylisticaly breaking rules in order to emphasize certain elements.

THAT again is the anime influence in the D&D artwork. The stylistic use of overly sharp features. Of overly large eyes, of overly dramatic poses, and "movements."

Again, I'll state that I don't think any of the artists can be called an ANIME artist. It's just that they styles used in ANime are being used here as well.
It's no wonder either. Anime as an art form has been popular for a while now. Artists feed off of each other for inspiration and training. It's why we have certain "periods" of art.

Now, Scribble, I can totally agree with you on this. If the "3e art=anime" crowd stopped where you do, I'd have zero problem. Like you say, art styles feed eachother and crossover is inevitable. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the level of anime influence in D&D art is about the same as its influence anywhere else. That I could agree with.

Unfortunately, most people don't seem to be that reasonable. For many critics, it seems that anything they don't like = anime and therefore it's bad.

This thread has shown, IMO, that the art isn't particularly (and I emphasise that word) influenced by anime. Yes, there might be a bit here or there, mostly if you tilt your head and squint in a lot of cases. What I object to is the blanket characterizations we tend to get that 3e art is all anime all the time. It used to be Dungeonpunk was the word of choice. Now, Anime is the buzzword.

For example, the Kelemvor picture above. I just don't see it. That's stock comic book. You can see a face like that in pretty much any Marvel or DC comic book for years. The proportions look okay to me. About the only thing that looks possibly anime is the fact that he's somewhat effeminate and looks angsty.

I guess it's a case of people seeing what they want to see. Myself included.

Hussar said:

Now, Scribble, I can totally agree with you on this. If the "3e art=anime" crowd stopped where you do, I'd have zero problem. Like you say, art styles feed eachother and crossover is inevitable. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the level of anime influence in D&D art is about the same as its influence anywhere else. That I could agree with.

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Not nessisarily. D&D by it's very nature tends to draw on more "pop" type art, comics and such. So in the realm of that, yes, the inspirations and influence I'd say are pretty standard. (Along the level you get with other "pop" stuff like you'd find in hot topic, or similar things aimed at the "younger" crowd...

Unfortunately, most people don't seem to be that reasonable. For many critics, it seems that anything they don't like = anime and therefore it's bad.

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I think thats a case that you see in a lot of arguments. I don't get it really... I mean I'm not the worlds biggest fan of anime, but that doesn't make it "bad." Just a style I don't really always favor.

I think part of the problem in this thread is that it's almost submiting to the anime = bad crowd... They say it's anime influenced so it's bad, and you're saying nuh uh... It' almost as if the fans of anime are afraid of admitting there's influences for fear that it can be used against them somehow... (hrmmm a weird parallel to how D&D was can be sort of found there... )

I think it's just time for the Anime fans to stand up and say that an Anime influence is a good thing.

This thread has shown, IMO, that the art isn't particularly (and I emphasise that word) influenced by anime. Yes, there might be a bit here or there, mostly if you tilt your head and squint in a lot of cases. What I object to is the blanket characterizations we tend to get that 3e art is all anime all the time. It used to be Dungeonpunk was the word of choice. Now, Anime is the buzzword.

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Shrug. I don't think you really need to tilt your head and squint really. I agree with you that D&D art isn't Anime. It's not. It's it's own thing really. The artists have their own styles. It's just that they tend to be drawling a lot from the techniques used in Manga. Maybe the current art directors feel that this highlights the "fantasy" nature of D&D? Who knows.

I think I'd lean towards D&D art leans more towards comic art... (And by that I mean both Western and Eastern comic art forms.)

It just seems the basic premise of the thread was kind of a loaded argument although I can understand what you were going for.

For example, the Kelemvor picture above. I just don't see it. That's stock comic book. You can see a face like that in pretty much any Marvel or DC comic book for years. The proportions look okay to me. About the only thing that looks possibly anime is the fact that he's somewhat effeminate and looks angsty.

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I think I'd have to agree on that one... I mean the case could be made, but I'd say the techinques are definitely way more in line with claassic art. (and again even western artists break the "rules." It just tends to be more the norm in Manga...

Not sure if he looks angsty, more sad.

I guess it's a case of people seeing what they want to see. Myself included.

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Thats why art is so awesome. It can be many different things to many people, and often what the artist sets out to depict isn't what he/she ends up with.

Anyway, now that I've once again typed way too much...

Hey, no worries Scribble. This has to be one of the more earnest discussions about D&D art that I've seen in a while. I freely admit to my ignorance on the topic. I'm not an artist, nor did I study art history. I'm just a fan.

Teemu said:

I don't have the time to read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been posted already, but this picture of Kelemvor - look at his face. That's an anime/manga face.

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Not at all.

So. These are all pictures of girls named "Alice". Some are from Western media, some are from Anime.



Just to refresh ourselves on what Anime looks like vs. what Western stuff looks like.

I know 1951 is Western and 2007 is Anime. Anyone care to guess the ones in between?

Cheers, -- N

Scribble said:

I think part of the problem in this thread is that it's almost submiting to the anime = bad crowd... They say it's anime influenced so it's bad, and you're saying nuh uh... It' almost as if the fans of anime are afraid of admitting there's influences for fear that it can be used against them somehow... (hrmmm a weird parallel to how D&D was can be sort of found there... )

I think it's just time for the Anime fans to stand up and say that an Anime influence is a good thing.

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I'm willing to do that. I like anime, I like anime art. I'd be happy for it to influence D&D art. I'm all for a big tent art style.

But what I hear a lot of from... lets just say certain people, and certain types of gamers, is a whining "D&D is so anime now! I hate it!" These people invariably then point to something that isn't anime.

This indicates to me that what's going on is a certain... its not nerd rage, its more nerd prejudice. There's a certain mean natured prejudice in calling everything you don't like "anime," and especially in then attempting to insinuate that anyone who likes the things you don't like is a munchkin 12 year old hooked on dragon ball z.

I don't mind seeing people who say that sort of thing called out on the fact that they don't even know what anime art looks like, and are confusing long standing tropes of western fantasy art with art from Japan. This undercuts their position by revealing that what's really going on is just a knee jerk reaction against new things.

Just as another point, odd proportions doesn't automatically mean anime. Sometimes, it just means bad. A case in point is this image by Chris Dien:



There's some really weird proportions going on there. The image in the book really makes it obvious. His forearms and hands are just bizarre and his head is weird. But, it's not a case of anime influence, just, well, poor talent IMO.

Scribble said:

I think it's just time for the Anime fans to stand up and say that an Anime influence is a good thing.

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I know that I at least have been doing so since the beginning of all of this.