Urn Your Pay (Rae judging)

"Enough messing about?" the "painting" says. "I believe you're right. I've let you wander unmolested in my house long enough. Now!"

Surprise Round

At first, nothing happens. Then, suddenly, everything seems to happen at once. Atop one of the wall sconces near the southwestern door, a small creature appears. It stands about a forearm's length tall, with four legs looking something like a grasshopper's. It has a tiny fiddle in its arms, which it begins playing furiously, a lively dance tune. You feel a strange urge to dance, but shake it off.

Next, as though dancing to the tune itself, the tablecloth seems to writhe and separate into its component fibers, which twist and grow rapidly, flowing off of the table, seeking and tangling around ankles and knees with surprising strength. Ter-raen dodges aside from the tendrils with surprising grace, and Fenenn quickly bites away any clinging bits, but Erf and Gildrim find themselves entangled. A second grasshopper-legged creature pops into sight, perched above the northern door.

A third pops into sight flying with translucent wings, hovering near the ceiling next to the southwest door. It immediately fires a tiny bow at Erf, missing him among the writhing folds of tablecloth.

Round 1

The grasshopper-men act quickly. The first, looking slightly hurt that none of you feel the urge to dance, stows his fiddle away and draws a bow. The second, bow already in hand, fires a quick shot at Fenenn, hitting him near the muzzle. Fenenn lets out a plaintive howl; he is not badly hurt, but the wound is painful nonetheless. (ooc: 1 damage, crit not confirmed)

The third fires again at Erf, still missing, but coming closer.

Ter-raen...

Initiative
G1 uninjured, perched 10ft off the floor
G2 uninjured, perched 10ft up
G3 uninjured, hovering 12ft up
Ter-raen 25/25 <== You're up
Gildrim 16/16, entangled
Erf 22/22, entangled
Fenenn 12/13

ooc: everybody makes a will save in the surprise round. Boring! A word about the dining room / battlefield: The ceiling here is roughly 14 feet high, and there are wall sconces at regular intervals around the room about 10 feet high. Table is 3 feet high. The greenish area on the map is affected by the entangle spell; hopefully it will still be visible after upload. Everyone can move through it at half speed, and those entangled take -2 to attacks and -4 dex until they escape.

HP 25/25, AC 18

Ter-raen gets up onto the table beside him and takes a step forward, swinging his scimitar furiously at the the strange looking grasshopper man (G1)! Don't look like man in painting, but still ugly!

Attack (1d20+6)=22, Damage (1d6+4)=9

[sblock=K.Nature 25]K.Nature (1d20+8=25) Grigs right?[/sblock]

[sblock=Entangle]Are you saying that those who failed their saves can move to? Usually this is not the case and would require those who failed their saves to make a DC 20 strength or Escape Artist check - literally impossible for poor Erf! [/sblock]

Erf cursing and realizing escape will be virtually impossible given his small stature begins to call upon a natural ally to tackle these pesky creatures. Despite the distract the entangling fibers he is able to maintain his concentration.

Erf commands Fenenn out of the effect, and the dog will take a defensive stance eyeing the creatures out of his reach hungrily.

OOC: If his K.Nature him that Grig have DR he will try to use an eagle to grapple one of the creatures and bring it to the ground. He will also tell his companions everything he knows about the creatures.

[sblock=Concentration 17]Conc (1d20+9=17) [/sblock]

[sblock=OOC]Knowledge (nature) 1d20+7=15[/sblock]"We mean nae harm, ye silly wee - hey noo, stop that!" says Gildrim as the arrows start to fly.

"Oot th' way, Fennen!" he roars, giving Erf a chance to instruct the dog. He bulls his way through the tangling fibres, dropping his sword at his feet and uncoiling his whip. With a crack, he lashes it at a grasshopper man.

[sblock=OOC]He'll move to the square above Erf and target G2, trying to disarm the greature of its bow. Um... I think his attack roll will be BAB+Str+whip bonus +size bonus +entangled penalty = 1+3+2+8-2= +12, 1d20+12=31 and that (I'm not certain of this) an archer takes a -4 penalty for trying to retain something other than a melee weapon. I think I won one. If Erf provides soft cover for G3, this seems relevant to direct attacks, but not to disarm attempts, since it provides a +4 AC bonus.[/sblock]

[sblock=ooc] knowledge checks, right. I knew I forgot something. Erf's knowledge check is sufficient to tell him that these are indeed grigs, which share the common fey trait of DR/cold iron, resist spells, and can jump great distances as well as fly poorly. The one hovering seems to be a mystery; Erf doesn't think most grigs can do that.

As for the entangle and movement... you're right, I got a bit confused by the line in the entangled condition about not being immobilized unless the plants are connected to something solid. But surely that's in there to deal with tanglefoot bags, not the entangle spell. However, now I've painted myself into a bit of a corner, since Gildrim's move shouldn't have been legal, except that I misinterpreted.

What I think I'll do is offer Trouvere a choice: do you want that natural 19 to apply to the disarm check made from your square, with cover and entanglement penalties, or do you want it to apply to a strength check to break free and move half your speed this round? (see next post for more on entangle)

This combat is going to be fraught with obscure rules corner cases, I'm afraid. Hopefully you guys will beat it quickly so my head can stop hurting.
[/sblock]

[sblock=more entangle waffling]Trouvere has managed to convince me that there's at least serious doubt as to whether entangle immobilizes you on a failed save. I'd always run it that way, but then I'd always thought that entangle was overpowered for a first level spell when interpreted that way. Googling shows me nothing conclusive, but there appear at first glance to be as many people interpreting it one way as the other. And since "no entanglement" gets me out of retconning, I'm willing to resolve my confusion that way.

So now the ball's back in my court. Update coming as time permits.[/sblock]

[sblock=Mmmm, entangled waffles]Well the spell entangle does immobilize those who fail save. No doubt about that, its spelled out pretty clearly, those who do not fail their save can move at half speed and must make a save vs becoming entangled each round on the casters turn, etc. However, the spell entangle also only works with plants, which makes it useless in a large number of enviroments.

If an effect says a creature becomes entangled, but does not specify that it is stuck to the ground in some way then it can indeed move.[/sblock]

[sblock=Waffles, yuck]Purely being entangled does not prevent moving, as is clear from the entangled condition description. Does the Entangle spell have an additional movement-restricting effect?

The Web description spells out precisely its effects on movement: on a successful save, "the creature is entangled, but not prevented from moving" while on a failed save, "the creature is entangled and can't move from its space", so these are clearly two distinct effects. The Entangle description merely says "holding them fast and causing them to become entangled".

But "holding them fast" is just not a game term. There's no "held fast" condition. The only other places it appears in the SRD are in the description of the Retriever demon and the spell Black Tentacles ("They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area, holding them fast"), and they have their effect through the grapple mechanic (if you're grappled by a black tentacle, you could win an opposed grapple check in order to move, presumably by sliding yourself further towards the tip of a tentacle. If you move the grapple far enough to leave the area of effect, you just escape all the tentacles.) "Held fast" turns out to mean nothing at all more than grappled. Likewise, Entangle has its effects through applying the entangled condition.

Further, if Entangle were intended to immobilize, then its description would read slightly differently: "A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area." Still? i.e. just like those that failed their save, or like anyone merely entangled, as they are. If they were immobilized, it would surely read "A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled and can move at half speed through the area." The "but still" clearly shows the intention that those who fail their saves can also move at half speed. The difference on a successful save is that they don't also suffer the entanglement penalties to Dex and to attack rolls or need to make Concentration checks to cast.

Also, "The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action..." refers to the fact that the escape attempt, though taking up the whole round, includes or allows a limited move action. If an escape attempt were required to move at all, it would be more likely to say "The creature can break free in order to move half its normal speed by using a full-round action..."

Of course, by DM decision, Entangle can indeed immobilize according to the clause in the entangled condition that reads "unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object". Entangling grass? Unlikely. Entangling trees? You bet.

Though I hesitate to interpret the minds of the game designers, an Entangle that does not (routinely) immobilize is a better match as a 1st level spell for Web as a 2nd level. It can (1) only be used where there's appropriate plant material, but (2) doesn't require anchoring points to work at all, (3) has a 40' radius instead of 20', and (4) attempts to re-entangle once per round, where Web requires only one save.[/sblock]

[sblock=Entanle wrangle - its funny because it rhymes, honest!]

The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check.

Click to expand...

Pretty darn clear if you ask me . So yes, entangle spell does have an additional movement restricting component. This is also how the RPGA plays it, etc. I play a fair few druids and archivists (god I love that class!) - love my casters, because you know derr - and I have never seen it interpreted differently.

Entangle is a good spell for a druid outdoors in the wild, and it should be, that is the druid's place of power. It does not work in almost any other enviroment, and lets face it the game is Dungeons and Dragons. It would for example be completely useless to Erf in this situation as the spell would require a mass of plants nearby. It is a spell which Erf will be scribing, but not preparing. When its good its very very good, when its bad its, err well, Summon Natures Ally I.

Frankly there are plenty of 1st level spells which I think are more powerful than Entangle. Charm person, Produce Flame - an underrated spell, Magic Missile, and that's just in the PHB.

I miss my spell compendium , I want my Aspect of the Wolf .

[/sblock]

[sblock=OOC]Nuh huh. I covered that. It's "break free and move" not "break free to move". Breaking free is specifically a special full-round action that includes a move (rather than just a standard action, leaving a regular move action available) in order that the Dex penalty applies for the entire round and everyone else gets at least one good chance to stick you full of arrows. Mention of the movement as you break or wriggle free says nothing otherwise about the mobility of those who accept the entanglement penalties.

Seriously, nearly everyone gets this wrong, RPGA apparently included. They see "held fast" and jump to conclusions. "Held fast" is nothing more than why in this instance you're "entangled". That's why the Web description is completely different.[/sblock]