D&D 5E I would really like a return of the old Bard class.

The thing is, the bard class does have the ability to be good at melee, buff party members and sing healing songs, just like the old-school one. They are just also a full caster. That is why the Bard is a pretty rocking class.

If you want an old style bard, just take away half of their spell casting and give them nothing in return. Tradition dictates they kind of suck. The thing is, even if they were only semi-casters, they would still be a good class. Once you start taking things away from the bard, you see just how much you can take away from them and still have them be a fully functional class.

I've been playing a 5e Bard of Lore of over a year and I've loved it.

Theory crafters here are missing that the Bard's list is fundamentally different from the Wizard list. It is loaded with support spells. They might be both full casters, but what "full caster" means to both of them is fundamentally different.

Here's my Bard's list
cantrips
Message
Minor Illusion
Prestidigitation

1st
Charm Person
Disguise Self
Dissonant Whispers

2nd
Blindness/Deafness
Detect Thoughts
Phantasmal Force

3rd
Dispel Magic
Major Image
Tongues
Mystic Step - magical secret
Aura of Vitality - magical secret

4th
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph

what should be obvious here is that the number of spells cast offensively on the enemy are few (Dissonant Whispers, Phantasmal Force, and Blindness/Deafness), while the support spells are many. This Bard is not a lute-carrying Wizard. I designed him to fit the "master mind" archetype. He is a magnificent force multiplier leading the enemy into ambushes or turning other PCs into shredding machines. A big part of that is Bardic Knowledge and Cutting Words.

Tony Vargas said:

I will agree that the Bard seems to have continued moving forward in 5e rather than retreating from the ground gained by the other modern editions. And that it's even unusual in that sense, as 5e classes have been mostly backward-looking to evoke classic feel - with great success in every sense.

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That's an interesting observation. When even grognards who want classic feeling classes look at the new bard and think, "...Yeah, I'm good with that," they've done a pretty good job.

5e Bards make GREAT wizards - they're far closer to the wizards of fiction & legend than are D&D wizards.
If you don't want 'another type of wizard' then yeah they're not so great.

IMO, the 5e bard is a great throwback to the 2e Bard, my all-time favorite class.

2e Bard: ability to select weapon proficiency from all weapons (but only 'trained' in two at first level), armor up to chain mail, a handful of rogue abilities and up to 6th-level wizard spells (but suffered a spell fail % chance for casting in armor). The Bard's combat ability followed the rogue (second-lowest) THAC0 progression. In addition to all that, they had their trademark musical abilities and Bardic Lore.

5e Bard: starts with all simple weapons and a handful of martial blades and ranged weapons; Light armor proficiency (and no spell % fail chance while wearing armor); a big chunk of skills; full casting. Everyone fights the same, and they still get their trademark musical abilities and Bardic Lore. Valor Bard adds medium armor and shields. Lore bard adds new non-Bard spells to their list.

Granted, I see far more player chatter about Lore bards over Valor Bards, mostly because Lore Bards are That Darn Good. Finally.

Yeah, everything's working as expected. No need for changes here, IMO.

But if you really hate Bardic spell-casting, just slice off their spells. Bard will still work as a class without them, albeit a boring one. Or give them Druidic spells instead. Always a good time.

I wish the bard would have focused on song as a separate type of magic the was closer to ritual use (or songs on paper that could be memorized). That would have provided a lot more room for a class like a Warlord. But 5E was more about subclasses, versus offering new systems. Overall, I prefer the old vancian system.

I suppose the obvious "quick and dirty" answer to wanting a bard that doesn't use spells to represent its songs would be to work out some sort of conversion factor to turn spell slots into additional Bardic Inspiration.

Perhaps use the number of spell slots divided by two. Also add the ability use an action to grant Bardic Inspiration to multiple people at once.

S'mon said:

5e Bards make GREAT wizards - they're far closer to the wizards of fiction & legend than are D&D wizards.
If you don't want 'another type of wizard' then yeah they're not so great.

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I agree, and my typical instinctive image of a Bard is that of a mysterious traveller carrying the knowledge of far places and far times, who stops at taverns and inns to dispense bits of wondrous stories, who may reveal to be capable at any task, and is ultimately a near-magical person. Gandalf is not far off...

I really like the bard, but I understand the concern.

Pros:
- Spellcasting up to 8th level wizard spells is not new. They were on 6th level of the bard list. I think making the levels constant for all classes makes for a cleaner system.
- Magical secrets allows casting any spell. Reminds me of 2nd edition too.
- 2nd edition xp progression made the bard cast 3rd level spells at about the same time as the wizard because he was level 7 when the wizard was just level 2.

Cons:
- I really liked int as a caster stat as well as memorizing spells.
- the bards handbook allowed for many differend archetypes
- 3.5 added a lot of non spell buffs

My solution.
The more I think about the 2nd edition bard, the more I think a multiclass combination of arcane trickster multiclassed with wizard and entertainer background could get the right feel. 2nd edition bards usually dis not use armor because there was no way to allow casting in armor thaz was not elven chain. You also could never get more than 1 attack per round and you generally felt like a rogue with all those thief skills.

For more dighting prowess you can multiclass fighter and battlemaster. Just 3 levels give some nice things to use and 5 levels if you want to be lore bard and fighter.
I really think multiclass rules played a big role in class design. Once they knew that a level dip of 1-3 levels can change the feel of a class completely they focused more on one thing. Same with bladesinger. 1 or 2 levels of fighter really hoghlight the melee wizard aspect. Sadly they forgot to make longswords a finesse weapon.

Li Shenron said:

I agree, and my typical instinctive image of a Bard is that of a mysterious traveller carrying the knowledge of far places and far times, who stops at taverns and inns to dispense bits of wondrous stories, who may reveal to be capable at any task, and is ultimately a near-magical person.

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