D&D 5E Musical instrument tool proficiency and performance skill proficiency

As a DM I usually ask...

1) Are you proficient with the instrument?
2) Yes? Roll a Charisma (Performance) Check.
3) No? Get ready to dodge rotten eggs and overripe tomatoes.

The difference between tools and skills is tools require a physical object to perform, while skills are inherent to the character (though physical objects can sometimes help, such as a climber's kit for Strength (Athletics) checks to climb.)

Thieves' Tools are a tool proficiency because you can't pick a lock with your bare fingers.

Musical Instruments are a tool proficiency because unless it's an air guitar, you need a physical instrument to play.

I think the general "music" listed under the Perform skill is a mistake at odds with the way skills and tools work for everything else. If you're playing a lute, it would be a lute tool check. If you were also signing and/or dancing while playing the lute, that would be separate Charisma (Perform) check.

Basically, what roll(s) you call for depend on what the character was doing and hoping to accomplish. I would say someone who had both Perform and proficiency in a musical instrument could use their instrument to "Help" their Perform check or vice-versa.

I've been considering ditching tools as proficiencies, and rolling them into the normal proficiency list much like 3e's category skills (craft, profession, perform)

I'd rename it to 'Entertainment' and give anyone proficient a number of trained modes of performance equal to their Int bonus plus proficiency bonus (pick more as either bonus increases), selected from a list something like this (includes modern examples):

Acting
Beatboxing
Buffoonery
Composing
Dancing
DJ-ing
Keyboard Instruments
Oratory
Percussion Instruments
Puppetry
Riddling
Singing
Standup Comedy
Stringed Instruments
Wind Instruments

Kalshane said:

The difference between tools and skills is tools require a physical object to perform, while skills are inherent to the character (though physical objects can sometimes help, such as a climber's kit for Strength (Athletics) checks to climb.)

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If I didn't have proficiency with Athletics, would I be able to gain my proficiency bonus to Climb checks by taking proficiency with a Climber's Kit? Because tool proficiency is something that you can learn with downtime. If the campaign skips ahead for a few years, everyone can be proficient with every tool.

Saelorn said:

If the campaign skips ahead for a few years, everyone can be proficient with every tool.

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A montage of montages!

Or this:

Saelorn said:

If I didn't have proficiency with Athletics, would I be able to gain my proficiency bonus to Climb checks by taking proficiency with a Climber's Kit? Because tool proficiency is something that you can learn with downtime. If the campaign skips ahead for a few years, everyone can be proficient with every tool.

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Technically, no, because a Climber's Kit is listed under Adventuring Gear, rather than Tools. By the rules you could no more have proficiency in it than you could have proficiency in using a backpack.

That being said, if someone wanted to spend the time and GP to become proficient in a Climber's kit, I would allow them to make a Climber's Kit check instead of a Strength (Athletics) check when climbing, provided they had the kit available.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I guess my confusion was warranted, and in the end it doesn't matter too much -- just let the player describe her actions and decide if it sounds reasonable.

intently said:

Your player's bard wants to perform a concert for the king and his court to earn their favor. Do you ask her to roll a skill check for Performance or for her lute as a tool? I'm thinking Performance... but then when she use her lute proficiency?

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Your player wants to influence the king, so the check is charisma (Performance.) It's not just the king, though - the entire court is present, and rather than make a check for each of them I would simply set the DC a step higher. First, however, I would ask whether the bard was trying to use his mastery of the lute to impress the king and court and thereby aid his performance check.

The bard will be able to play well without a check. If he wants to help his performance, though, I'll need a basic description. Successfully playing something hard (DC 20) might get him advantage on the eventual charisma (Performance) check. Successfully displaying virtuosity by playing something very hard or nearly impossible (DC 25 or 30) would also lower the DC of the performance check, and might carry an additional benefit based on the circumstance.

If this is a major story beat in the campaign, however, you might consider running it as a 4e style skill challenge. Set a DC based on how difficult, in general terms, you think it will be to influence the royal court (see the Conversation Reaction table, DMG pg. 245) and ask the party members what skills they want to use to earn the favor of the throne. Obviously the bard can use dex (lute) and cha (perform,) but the cleric can also use wis (religion) to put the party's requests in a context favorable to the kingdom's divine patron, the wizard can use history or investigation to point out the ways in which favoring the party is good for the kingdom generally or the king and courtiers specifically, and one or more insight checks can provide advantage to the other skill checks. You can determine the end result based on the number of successful skill checks the party gets before 3 failures: less than 3 gets them kicked out; 3 - 5 get them begrudging acceptance, or perhaps support from the king with opposition from several courtiers; 6 - 8 gets them what they asked for with some measure of enthusiasm; 9+ gets them a royal charter and free access to the castle armory.

My personal belief is that the more significant a thing is to the story, the less it should just come down to a single simple die roll. If it matters to the campaign whether the party earns the royal favor, then you want to encourage using as many skills as possible. If it comes down to just the bard, then both the lute proficiency and the performance skill should be on the table, as well as insight to read the crowd and history to pick the right song. Once the bard has earned advantage on the performance check and knocked a few points off the DC through other skills, then it becomes much more gratifying when he rolls two ones and experiences crushing defeat.

intently said:

Your player's bard wants to perform a concert for the king and his court to earn their favor. Do you ask her to roll a skill check for Performance or for her lute as a tool? I'm thinking Performance... but then when she use her lute proficiency?

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iserith said:

What ability check is called for - if one is called for at all - depends entirely on what the player described she wanted to do relative to the context of the situation. As DM, if you find yourself in the position of not knowing whether an ability check is appropriate or which ability check and/or proficiency applies to resolve the outcome of the stated fictional action, then the player likely did not adequately establish the goal and approach of the character (what the character is doing and hopes to accomplish). So start asking the player to be more specific as to goal and approach until it becomes obvious whether you need an ability check and which ability check is best.

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I agree that more specificity is required. The bard wishes to win the favor of the king and his court, but it isn't clear whether that can be done with a concert performance. It may be that the king and his court can only be won over by feats of strength, for example, or by solving the king's riddles. But if it is possible to earn the favor of the king and his court with the type of performance the bard intends to give, her approach still needs to be clearly stated. Does she intend to charm them with her stage-presence and showmanship? Or is it a display of her virtuosity with the lute that she hopes will impress the king? It could be the king and his court are aficionados of technical skill, for example, in which case the bard's lute-playing ability will be under scrutiny, or maybe they have less refined tastes and will be star-struck by anyone with the mere trappings of an entertainer. So I think the question of whether an ability check is called for depends somewhat on whether the bard's approach touches on the ideals, bonds, and flaws of the king and his court. And once the DM has determined which ability score is being tested by the bard's approach, and what proficiencies might apply, that information may affect the DC of the check, or lead to it having advantage or disadvantage.

Another thing to consider is the attitude of the king and his court. Trying to "earn their favor" sounds like their starting attitude towards the bard and her group is indifferent, and by touching on whatever ideal, bond, or flaw they have that relates to the bard's performance, the bard may be helping to change that attitude, at least temporarily, possibly affecting the DC of a CHA check that may be called for in the event the PCs attempt to influence the king and his court in some way.