D&D 5E adventurers in your world: common or rare?
- Thread starter GlassJaw
- Start date
What PC class powers work well?
Hmm, I often use the Duelist +2 dmg bonus if adding extra damage dice to weapon damage seems too much. I tend though to start with the special powers of the MM NPCs and use them; some I've learned don't really work that well (eg Martial Advantage, basically sneak attack for fighter types) so if anything my NPC design has become simpler over time, I find the approach of http://rpgtinker.com/ to be excellent in practice
- add more hit points, attacks, & damage (that goes for casters too). But 4e style forced-movement powers work well, so does stuff like a no-opp-att flying leap.
I may add more good saves. If I want unusual NPCs then the 5e Feats (eg Polearm Master) are very nice, giving an NPC one immediately makes them distinctive without a huge power-up.
I've occasionally given evil priests the Negative/Necrotic Energy Blast they get in Pathfinder; it's OP in 3e/PF but works very nice in 5e for a solo bad guy. Again it's simple to apply, nasty and effective.
For a real BBEG like the Headless Horseman in my 5e version of The Asylum Stone I make them
Legendary; the 3 auto-saves & 3 legendary actions is a big power-up.
I can imagine giving a special NPC some subclass special powers like Phoenix Sorceress or
Moon Druid, but I'm probably more likely to give some unique special power.
Using Sly Flourish's min-maxed Mage - http://slyflourish.com/empowering_the_war_mage.html
- showed me that a caster just using optimal combat spells is incredibly deadly.
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clearstream
(He, Him)
I love the power of a good spreadsheet! Comparing the methods summed into tiers -
Forgotten Realms (L1 = 1/100, then /2 per level)
T1 = 1,312,500
T2 = 86,133
T3 = 1,346
T4 = 20
TE = 1
Forgotten Realms (L1 = 1/100, then 1/10th per tier)
T1 = 700,000
T2 = 70,000
T3 = 7,000
T4 = 700
TE = 7
Dividing by 2 can definitely work. As a function for iterations = levels, it feels too aggressive for me. I have no issue with it yielding more character class equivalents at low levels. It's not working for me at tiers 4 and epic. There it fails to yield the default D&D world and as a DM I'd like a wider cast to draw from.
Both functions are simple to implement with a spreadsheet. What about on the fly? Say we need a consistent way to quickly guess how many L9 NPCs there are in this town - pop. 67,000? Divide by 2 tells us there are precisely 3. Tiers and orders of magnitude tells us there are no more than 67. I feel like at my table I'll be faster working from the latter! With the tier estimate in mind, I might guess at a dozen. That probably high-balls it but it also probably doesn't matter.
On the other hand, your method points out that we might need to also know what classes those NPCs fall within! How might we consistently determine that without needing a spreadsheet? (I know some will repeat here that as DMs we can simply decide. That's true. A valuable method will to be simple, while producing greater consistency to make our world more credible. It should inspire DMs by occasionally leading in a direction they mightn't have considered, making for a dynamic narrative!)
clearstream
(He, Him)
Thank you, this has felt fruitful
Given the choice between envisioning that stat blocks represent character class individuals in abstract, and envisioning that they are actually unconnected with the class system, I find the former more useful. It yields richness in how we can use or develop them. That Sly Flourish War Mage you linked is a great example. His Mage accesses other Wizard spells while keeping consistent with what a Wizard of equivalent level could choose from. I share your feeling that most or maybe nearly all the time we don't need NPCs fully-fleshed out with character classes. A key NPC like Hakeem justifies it, others as you say can be approximated. That doesn't stop me envisioning my approximated Barbarian to be a Barbarian on par with a PC.Probably here then we hit the simple question of how we want to count them? For me, wanting to know the number of adventurers takes context in the more general question of wanting to know how many character class individuals there are at each level or tier. Because it seems to me that adventurers are a subset of the former. And as discussed, the former include both abstracted NPCs and fully detailed NPCs. I think someone could very well insist on principle that they are unconnected: I don't really see how that improves the world? Maybe the goal is to make PCs feel more special? For me being 1/1000 at tier 2 and 1/10,000 at tier 3 actually is special enough.
[Footnote: I'd pay good money for "Volo's Guide to Characters" - a book filled with NPC stat blocks!]
You could straight assume that at any given level/tier, the group of NPCs would be 1/3 fighter or rogue types (based on local flavor) , with the remaining third divided between arcane and divine flavored.
That's easy to calculate and "close" to the 70/20/10 that I had.
Hakeem is a PC (currently in the Caverns of Thracia) - I was just trying to adduce evidence of GMing 5e at high level.
I don't think 5e PCs necessarily need to feel special; it's not hard to make NPCs just as powerful as PCs while keeping them much simpler. I think in 4e the tendency is for PCs to feel special, especially at
Epic Tier with the Epic Destinies. In 5e I think you can definitely talk about power tiers and
cover both PCs and NPCs. Personally I haven't found the need to do much work on NPC demographics in 5e
the way I used to before 4e, but partly that's because I already have legacy 3e/PF demographics
for my main campaign worlds. Partly it's more that building from the ground up the demographics tend to emerge organically in play.
I agree a book of characters would be nice; when GMing online http://rpgtinker.com/ covers what I need but for offline sandboxing a well done book of NPCs organised by role would be great.
BTW just to say I do think this is a reasonable CR/Level distribution for NPCs in a typical Forgotten Realms campaign, it seems to map pretty closely to published FR.
I generally find the most important questions are things like "what do this town's soldiers look like?" "what do their toughest fighters look like?" and especially "who are the highest level casters?" I think to maintain versimilitude it's good to avoid stuff like the 1e error of having professional city guard be far weaker than random street
thugs; both will be Tier I but IMO it makes sense the standing guard of a major city will look more like
the MM Veteran than the MM Guard.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
I use training for level-up, thus the most common thing I need to be able to answer is "Does this town have someone capable of training me?"; which beyond very low level isn't always a guaranteed "yes".
With a bit of random variance, this makes loads of sense.
Lanefan
clearstream
(He, Him)
I've been thinking about this along the same lines as you, and wondering if our goal should be less about knowing how many there are, and more our chances of finding one?! Not sure if this could work, but behold - the DC to find PC table
"DC to find PC"
Polity size_____Tier 1_____Tier 2_____Tier 3_____Epic+
100s___________10_________10_________20_______30
1000s__________5__________10_________15_______25
10,000s________5__________5__________15_______25
100,000s_______0__________5__________10_______20
1000,000s______0__________0__________10_______20
Of course the title is tongue-in-cheek, as the idea is we're finding character-class equivalent NPCs who will mostly be represented by abstract MM stat blocks. As a further caveat, I believe 5e DCs could meaningfully scale to 40. If you think so too, then this table might be improved using higher DCs for Tier 3 and Epic+. Could it work to introduce rolls to suggest headcount spreads e.g. d10xN where N is a factor based on polity size?
@S'mon @SkidAce
Heh, I think I would only make a DC check to locate something if I knew it existed.
In my Ghinarian Hills Wilderlands campaign the main, heavily detailed, campaign area is approx 2000 square miles, about 10000 people. Almost everyone is Tier I or II CR though there are a fair number of Priests similar to the MM one with CL5. Going through my NPC lists I could find two arguably Tier III - Oriax the Lecherous, CL 12? Wizard caster level 19 - currently on another plane, and Lady Meda, CL11? Bard caster level 15. I don't think there are any other casters in the region above about level 9 or 10, and warrior types top out in Tier II likewise.
Applying your numbers:
1% Tier I CR 1-4 would be 100 - looks about right.
0.1% Tier II would be 10 - hmm, I think there are probably slightly more Tier II, but mostly at the low end, around CR 5.
0.01% Tier III would be 1 - yes there is 1 Tier III in the region, though there used to be 2.
There are also two PCs who would be Tier III or IV
Shieldbiter Dragonborn Barbarian-15
Hakeem Barbarian-18
But they killed a bunch of Tier I-III NPCs to get where they are today.
Taking an hour to go over the entire region and guessing at a couple CRs for characters I've not statted yet, I get:
Tier II in region
Archermos, Gladiator CR 5
Joseph, Wiz 10 CR 6 (on another plane)
Sarene, Pirate CR 5-6
Damne, Weaponmaster CR 7
Jane Poole, adventurer CR 6
Lorius Vex, adventurer Wiz 10 CR 6
ex-Lord Hytirus Vex, CR 5
Lord Krens, Wiz 9 CR 6
Lord Kaldrac CR 5
Lord Usarus CR 5
Lord Arkonos CR 5?
High Priest Larsonos Clr 8 CR 5?
So 12 Tier II. 1 or 2 of these might be CR 4 but there might also be a couple CR 5+ I don't know about yet.
Given how rough my population estimate was, I'm struck by how closely your formula does fit this organically bottom-up detailed campaign area. If I took out the two who fled to an alternate plane it would be 11 Tier II and 1 Tier 3, almost exactly on. And other areas of my campaign world for which I have partial demographics seem to have a similar distribution.
Re Tier IV - some PCs just woke a CR 20 ancient brass dragon at the bottom of an 11-level dungeon, and some other PCs are about to encounter an immortal lich-king in another dungeon, but I'll not count those.
Anyway my conclusion is you are definitely in the right ball park for a typical D&D campaign.
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