D&D General No Fixed Location -- dynamically rearranging items, monsters, and other game elements in the interests of storytelling

hawkeyefan · Jan 16, 2020

Ristamar said:
Forcing or purposefully rearranging stuff for a desired outcome after a choice has been made typically isn't my preference when it undermines player agency. I don't see much of a difference between fudging a DC or die roll or path that would have revealed a secret item versus forcing the issue to make sure they find the item another way.

That being said, if your players are cool with it, it's all good. Some people still love to watch the magic trick even when they understand the illusion. For others, it sours the experience and the magic (or trust) is gone.

I wouldn't always defend making such changes. I've seen the word "railroad" pop up in the thread....and I don't know that a GM making a change would always be railroading. Although it could be, there could also be other reasons. I think that per the OP, the decision is made to help keep the game moving, or to reward exploration, and so on. To help enhance the drama in play....not to force the pre-determined outcome.

Having played a few games where there are elements that are not determined until the dice are rolled, it's easy to understand why deciding such things on the fly doesn't need to limit agency.

The way I look at it, one of my roles as GM or DM is to keep the game moving, and to try and make it as interesting as possible. To me, that's far more important to the game experience than adhering to the exact text of an adventure.

Fenris-77 · Jan 16, 2020

Hmm, yeah, I don't fudge rolls and I certainly don't just move things around wily nilly so that the roach motel is always in front of the players (I never move treasure). That's all a little strong. What I do is little more like pre-improvising. Lets say I have three clues: a map, an NPC, and a letter. All three are written into a location. If the players take a turn to the left somewhere, I might take the letter and drop it in front of them, just so they have at least one piece of info they can actually use. I wouldn't do that had they already found the map or talked to the NPC. I'm also not going to force them to act on the clues, I just want make sure they at least have a chance to.

I also tend to have a least a couple of mini-quests ready to bust out if the players end up doing the unexpected.

Prakriti · Jan 16, 2020

iserith said:
I wouldn't say it's necessarily good at handling it (I can't really say with any authority), just that between the two primary options outlined in the DMG, location-based adventures just seem to run better with this system in my experience. Likely it has something to do with the exploration pillar and all related options switching on as compared to a plot-based adventure many of which often focus chiefly on combat and social interaction. That, and in general, I would say it's easier to run a game where you don't have to be concerned with the PCs sticking to a particular storyline which is usually buried to preserve the reveals.

Yeah, I can understand that. I have definitely noticed that when playing more plot- or story-based adventures, the whole exploration pillar tends to fall through the cracks. Even when I consciously try to support it, it's usually gone after a few sessions. My players just aren't interested in things like wilderness exploration or poking around dungeons for its own sake. Which is really too bad, because there's a lot there that I enjoy and think is worth including in a game, whether it's foraging, rate of travel, mapping, navigating, or weather.

iserith · Jan 16, 2020

Prakriti said:
Yeah, I can understand that. I have definitely noticed that when playing more plot- or story-based adventures, the whole exploration pillar tends to fall through the cracks. Even when I consciously try to support it, it's usually gone after a few sessions. My players just aren't interested in things like wilderness exploration or poking around dungeons for its own sake. Which is really too bad, because there's a lot there that I enjoy and think is worth including in a game, whether it's foraging, rate of travel, mapping, navigating, or weather.

Send them over to play in my latest one-shot, "Anywhere But the Sleazy Goat." It'll blow their minds.

Charlaquin · Jan 16, 2020

Prakriti said:
I'm surprised you would say that. My first impression of 5E was that fast healing (healing to full after a long rest, for example) would put a serious damper on location-based adventures, and after running a few myself, I have to say that that initial impression has largely been borne out. At the very least, location-based adventures in 5E are very different from what they were in 1E and 2E, which often spread dungeon-crawling out over a period of several weeks, as the party returned frequently to town to train, rest, and recuperate. This is such an issue for me that I sometimes wonder if people playing through modern reprints of old adventures (Tales from the Yawning Portal and Castle Ravenloft, for example) are even really experiencing those original adventures in any meaningful sense.

5e is not 1e or 2e, so I am not surprised that 5e’s location-based adventures don’t play like 1e’s or 2e’s. As for the reprinted adventures, I like to think of them more as remakes than remasters, if you know what I mean.

Prakriti said:
But anyway -- what is it about 5E that makes you think it's particularly good at handling location-based adventures?

It’s hard to put my finger on what, specifically, makes it better for location-based adventures. It’s probably a multitude of little things, and I’d wager it ultimately comes down to the way they designed the fundamental framework of 5e, all the way back in the very first playtest packets. They went and played every edition of D&D to see what worked well in each and what was the connective tissue between them, and it’s pretty unsurprising to me that a rules system based on trying to capture the essence of what connects the editions of D&D would result in something that did dungeon-crawls and hex-crawls better than it does plots.

Ristamar · Jan 16, 2020

Dynamic content (like tables and other generators) is incredibly useful in almost any game. Carefully combining it with DM fiat is often key to producing a great game.

My personal objection only comes if the fiat is applied at the cost of player agency.

The Crimson Binome · Jan 16, 2020

hawkeyefan said:
I mean, if you're going to be a stickler for the rules, then shouldn't that be all of them? Even the one that says "you can change the other rules if you like?"

If you're using that one rule, then there are no other rules; there are merely suggestions. You don't have a cohesive game remaining, against which you can check whether anything is or is-not allowed.

hawkeyefan said:
What fundamental game mechanic is being changed?

The ban on meta-gaming is a fundamental mechanic of how the game is played, at least to the same degree that rolling a d20 rather than a d30 is a fundamental game mechanic. It's a basic mechanic for determining what happens.

generic · Jan 16, 2020

Saelorn said:
The ban on meta-gaming is a fundamental mechanic of how the game is played, at least to the same degree that rolling a d20 rather than a d30 is a fundamental game mechanic. It's a basic mechanic for determining what happens.

How is this even a cohesive thought in the context of what the game's DMG actually says? Please quote the DMG.

The Crimson Binome · Jan 17, 2020

Aebir-Toril said:
How is this even a cohesive thought in the context of what the game's DMG actually says? Please quote the DMG.

No, the burden is on you to try and defend meta-gaming. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where does it say that the DM can (or should) alter anything about the world, to force an outcome based entirely on personal preference?

iserith · Jan 17, 2020

Saelorn said:
No, the burden is on you to try and defend meta-gaming. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where does it say that the DM can (or should) alter anything about the world, to force an outcome based entirely on personal preference?

The only reference the D&D 5e rules have even close to "metagaming" is "metagame thinking" which is an admonishment to players not to allow concerns and observations outside the context of the game setting to get their characters killed or waste valuable session time. And that's it. The examples provided make it clear it's not the sort of "meta-gaming" that you're likely thinking about.

For anyone to be on the hook to "defend meta-gaming," the rules of the game would have to say something about requiring DMs and players not to do it. Which it doesn't.

D&D General No Fixed Location -- dynamically rearranging items, monsters, and other game elements in the interests of storytelling

hawkeyefan

Legend

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Ristamar

Adventurer

The Crimson Binome

Hero

generic

On that metempsychosis tweak

The Crimson Binome

Hero

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

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