Why Do You Hate An RPG System?

There are some systems that I dislike and don't want to play or GM, but I don't have an all-abiding hate for them. They just aren't ones I enjoy.

Saelorn said:

If you were actually doing it because it's what you think the character would do, then it wouldn't matter whether or not you got a fate point for it. If you were actually role-playing, then you would care about the item because the character wants it.

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All of which assumes that I have a perfect knowledge of everything my character would want to do and a perfect knowledge of the backstory of every item that would come up. And that I weight things exactly the same way as they do.

In reality I'm never going to be able to see the shine of the gold and feel it warm up under my fingertips - I simply do not get the same visceral. If it belongs in a museum it would be lucky to have a backstory of the index card's worth of text you normally see by a museum exhibit.

If on the other hand I get a bennie like a Fate point a significant part of that visceral, tactile mismatch vanishes. I might not touch it - but I still get the same dopamine hit of getting something shiny. And the Fate Point gives a clue visible to everyone how much my character wants it.

To use an analogy, too many movies these days are acted in front of a green screen. Your position is that if you're truly acting a green screen and no props at all shouldn't make a difference. Mine is that I want props of about the right shape and weight even if we're going to CGI an overlay to them because it is much much easier to act when more of it is real.

Saelorn said:

Making a Willpower check (or whatever) is not a voluntary choice. You can no more resist doing this thing, than you can resist bleeding out when you've been shot. You don't want to do it, but you do it anyway, because you have no choice.

Role-playing is only concerned with the process of making choices.

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And this is why Fate is far superior to GURPS for roleplaying. In Fate I get to make choices about whether I do something, and am given temptations and the dopamine hit my character would get for giving in to the temptation. In GURPS, as you say, "Making a Willpower check is not a voluntary choice" - I am not roleplaying because I am not making choices. Instead I am being mind controlled by the dice and then filling in why I did what I did. In Fate I am roleplaying, in GURPS I am not.

Neonchameleon said:

<Snip>

In Fate I am roleplaying, in GURPS I am not.

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While I agree with many of your points, let's not rush into the same badwrongfun accusations you're defending against. While not my preference, GURPS is a fine role playing game.

Ovinomancer said:

While I agree with many of your points, let's not rush into the same badwrongfun accusations you're defending against. While not my preference, GURPS is a fine role playing game.

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You're right and I overstated that. I'm not roleplaying at the specific instant that the dice decide whether I am going to give in to temptation. I do roleplay the rest of the time and knowing the game will take my control away causes me to be even more wary.

Neonchameleon said:

You're right and I overstated that. I'm not roleplaying at the specific instant that the dice decide whether I am going to give in to temptation. I do roleplay the rest of the time and knowing the game will take my control away causes me to be even more wary.

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In FATE, the player and the character motivations can end up at odds ("I'd never steal! But my player thinks taking the chip is a better choice and is willing to insert a narrative complication here and now so I guess I will". The player has complete control over the character actions, but the character can never exceed or fail to meet expectations.

GURPS, Hero, Pendragon, and other games with mechanical impulse-control systems mechanically model aspirational view versus in-the-face-of-temptation effects. The character and player motivations stay aligned, but the character may have either hidden depths or insufficient strength to succeed where the player would like. "I would never steal. I'm a good person. I really shouldn't take that wallet. Taking that wallet really wasn't stealing! OK, it was, but it was in a good cause!". It is not mind control so much as either exceeding or failing to live up to player expectations.

In GURPs and Hero, the dice will only remove control in those situations the player specifically arranges as part of character creation -- for which the player is duly compensated. You don't want to have an impulse control problem? Avoid the character attributes that inflict them.

Some campaigns specifically insist on a variety to better emulate the expected genre -- "Unwilling to kill" is a fairly common default expectation in the superhero genre games, for example.

Neonchameleon said:

You're right and I overstated that. I'm not roleplaying at the specific instant that the dice decide whether I am going to give in to temptation. I do roleplay the rest of the time and knowing the game will take my control away causes me to be even more wary.

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With my previous group (who really liked GURPS), they didn't do it that way. First, at character creation, they felt incentivized to make complex personalities (as opposed to being "forced to take 3 flaws" or something like that) in the form of point credits to spend on other stuff. During play, most of the time, they didn't roll for their disadvantages, they just played the character that way because that's the character they created and wanted to play anyway. They basically saw their advantages as a "roleplaying promise" that rewards you in the form of being better at firing guns or performing surgery. The only times they would roll would either be when they weren't sure how to play it (so it effectively acted as a guide, rather than as something forcing you to act a given way), or when it's a disadvantage that's basically not any different from any other "let's see if you're affected by this" mechanic (like CON rolls for poison or SAN rolls for monsters). They liked it because they felt more of the character's behaviour was under their control, as opposed to something the GM throws onto you like compels or intrusions and such.

Personally I like both GURPS and FATE, and I know several people active on the SJGames forums are the same, where FATE is perceived like a lightweight/narrative alternative to GURPS, and people end up playing both depending on the group and adventure at hand.

Neonchameleon said:

You're right and I overstated that. I'm not roleplaying at the specific instant that the dice decide whether I am going to give in to temptation. I do roleplay the rest of the time and knowing the game will take my control away causes me to be even more wary.

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I think I'd rather have the dice make that determination than have the GM make it because he couldn't think of anything "cooler" than taking control of my character.

Nagol said:

In FATE, the player and the character motivations can end up at odds ("I'd never steal! But my player thinks taking the chip is a better choice and is willing to insert a narrative complication here and now so I guess I will". The player has complete control over the character actions, but the character can never exceed or fail to meet expectations.

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GM: "Then why did you select 'Insatiable Kleptomaniac' as the Trouble for your character?"

prabe said:

I think I'd rather have the dice make that determination than have the GM make it because he couldn't think of anything "cooler" than taking control of my character.

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How is the GM taking control of your character? If you have Fate points, you can spend a Fate point to reject the complication. If you want the Fate point, you are accepting the complication presented to you, and you get the Fate point. If you want to steal, then you are accepting the complication presented to you, and you still get the Fate point. D&D has far more readily available ways for the GM to remove player agency than anything that Fate offers.

Neonchameleon said:

In reality I'm never going to be able to see the shine of the gold and feel it warm up under my fingertips - I simply do not get the same visceral. If it belongs in a museum it would be lucky to have a backstory of the index card's worth of text you normally see by a museum exhibit.

If on the other hand I get a bennie like a Fate point a significant part of that visceral, tactile mismatch vanishes. I might not touch it - but I still get the same dopamine hit of getting something shiny. And the Fate Point gives a clue visible to everyone how much my character wants it.

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What you're saying is that you have a poor imagination, and therefor need to meta-game if you want to generate a result that would approximate the outcome of successfully role-playing.

I guess that makes sense. In the same way that people who have never bowled before might use the bumpers, because it wouldn't be fun for them to roll nothing but gutter balls.

Saelorn said:

What you're saying is that you have a poor imagination, and therefor need to meta-game if you want to generate a result that would approximate the outcome of successfully role-playing.

I guess that makes sense. In the same way that people who have never bowled before might use the bumpers, because it wouldn't be fun for them to roll nothing but gutter balls.

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This sort of rude condescension is utterly uncalled for, Saelorn.