D&D 1E Fireball throughout the ages

Lanefan · Mar 30, 2020

Helldritch said:
I'd like to point out (1st and 2ed) that even though the fireball does not create pressure, it will fill its area of effect. Very often, a good way to not get caught in a fireball was to have the mage cast it and have a second character closing the door (when there was one) as the fireball was passing. A lot of DM allowed this as it was a nice way to remove the action of one of the character. (and not all DM liked to have their players toasted by their own fireball, especially if they had been clever.)

There's some serious risk involved there!

Close the door too late and you might as well not bother. Close it too soon and, well...

And as fireball's duration is "instantaneous" that's a pretty narrow time window.

Hussar · Mar 31, 2020

Side bar about holy avengers.

I've come to realize that in 5e, holy avengers aren't really that big of a deal. A flaming sword is FAR more effective, more or less doubling your fighter's damage/round and it's only uncommon (rare?) so, easily plausible to have at 5th level or so.

Sure, fire resistance is common, but, it's not quite as common as you might think. Given the choice, I'd take a 5e flaming weapon every time.

Greenfield · Mar 31, 2020

Lanefan said:
There's some serious risk involved there!

Close the door too late and you might as well not bother. Close it too soon and, well...

And as fireball's duration is "instantaneous" that's a pretty narrow time window.

Regarding "Instantaneous": That word you keep using? I don't think it means what you think it means...

In game terms it means that the result lasts forever and can't be dispelled. It doesn't mean that the spell takes zero time to manifest.

If it too zero time then there wouldn't be any tiny red bead that anyone could see, and nobody could Save, no matter what their Dex was, because nobody can react faster than zero time.

Lanefan · Mar 31, 2020

Greenfield said:
Regarding "Instantaneous": That word you keep using? I don't think it means what you think it means...

In game terms it means that the result lasts forever and can't be dispelled. It doesn't mean that the spell takes zero time to manifest.

Er, no; that would be "Permanent". "Instantaneous" means the spell's effects happen immediately, and then are gone.

If it too zero time then there wouldn't be any tiny red bead that anyone could see, and nobody could Save, no matter what their Dex was, because nobody can react faster than zero time.

Then how can anyone ever save vs. Lightning, which travels at the speed of light - i.e. close enough to zero time as makes no difference?

Hussar · Mar 31, 2020

Lanefan said:
Er, no; that would be "Permanent". "Instantaneous" means the spell's effects happen immediately, and then are gone.

Then how can anyone ever save vs. Lightning, which travels at the speed of light - i.e. close enough to zero time as makes no difference?

No, actually. Permanent effects simply don't have a duration. They can be dispelled. That's why healing spells were Instantaneous, and not Permanent, otherwise you could kill PC's with Dispel Magic.

Lanefan · Apr 1, 2020

Hussar said:
No, actually. Permanent effects simply don't have a duration. They can be dispelled. That's why healing spells were Instantaneous, and not Permanent, otherwise you could kill PC's with Dispel Magic.

1e PHB: Cure Light Wounds - Duration Permanent. One of very many examples.

Permanent spells that retain magic and can thus be dispelled e.g. Hallucinatory Forest are specifically noted as such in their write-ups. Otherwise, 'permanent' simply means the effect doesn't end by itself ever, even though the magic that grants it goes away as soon as it does its thing.

Stone affected by Stone Shape doesn't radiate magic after the spell changes its shape (and thus can't be dispaelled), but it retains the new shape forever unless eroded or weathered or otherwise destroyed - or shaped again!

Greenfield · Apr 1, 2020

I think I see where I/we went astray.

In later editions, third and later, Instantaneous and Permanent changed meanings.

In first and second editions they meant exactly what they said. I've never liked the misleading definition of instantaneous used in the later editions.

Still, in the earlier editions a round was a full minute, and anything that lasted less than a minute might have fallen into that category.

And in 3.* some "Instantaneous" effects, such as Flesh to Stone, are listed as Instantaneous, yet the spell can be dispelled through Freedom and Break Enchantment, so they blurred the lines even there.

Hussar · Apr 1, 2020

Heh it does pay to specify edition doesn't it.

cbwjm · Apr 1, 2020

I think I prefer the later edition usage of instantaneous and permanent. I don't know why but it just seems to make more sense to me.

Hussar · Apr 1, 2020

cbwjm said:
I think I prefer the later edition usage of instantaneous and permanent. I don't know why but it just seems to make more sense to me.

Well, like a lot of later additions to the game, it is a lot clearer what is meant. After all, if something in 1e was a permanent effect (there were no instantaneous effects - at least not game defined), did it still radiate magic afterward? If someone has had a Cure Light Wounds placed on them, do they radiate magic? What happens if they go into an anti-magic zone or have a Dispel Magic cast upon them?

In AD&D, there simply wasn't an answer. The DM was expected to make it up. 3e and later decided to clarify effects - even the aforementioned Turn to Stone can't be dispelled. There were specific spells to return the person, but, Dispel Magic or Disjunction for that matter, wasn't one of them. It's no different than Raise Dead can remove the Dead effect (if such actually existed). If someone in AD&D was killed by a permanent effect (say a reversed Cure Light Wounds), can I raise them with Dispel Magic?