D&D 5E A L12 (level 12 limit) Variant

DND_Reborn · Apr 13, 2020

vincegetorix said:
Men I'd like to, IIRC, there's not a single element of the game you havent modified, I'm really curious to see what I'd be able to ''borrow''

Here you go. I've had more in the past, but this was all I could find right now (some are in the new variant presented here).

P.S. Let me know if there are any you really like. I favor Wizards myself, so I like those.

DND_Reborn · Apr 13, 2020

Minigiant said:
Your Favored enemy option looks like it falls back on the 3e traps of before. 5e more or less has an "almost always on" +2 of damage for rangers. The Hunter, Gloom Stalker, HW, and Monster Slayer all give a super reliable extra attack or 1d6 bonus damage. I very quickly recognized the 3e FE that "didn't work without DM a headache" version. And all the ranger subclasses give a special attack, bonus damage, or extra attack at level 11. It stuck out because it looked like 3e's.

Especially will Extra attack handed out so freely

Hmm... Look out, it's a trap!!! LOL

Seriously though, I never saw it as any kind of trap, myself. Now, in AD&D the bonus applied to any "giant-class" humanoid at the bonus was equal to your ranger level. Maybe I could make it versatile? Something like you can change your favored enemy selection with each level, or if you spend a week of downtime studying weaknesses or something you can change it? That way if you know you are going up against a particular foe, it is more useful as you can prepare for it.

Minigiant said:
It was Extra Attack I was worrying about. Extra attackers with full casting worries me when the normal Extra attacker don't get their subclass boosts.

If I were to make tiers of subclass dependency

Heavily: cleric, ranger, warlock
Moderately: bard, druid, fighter, sorcerer, wizard
Lightly: barbarian, monk paladin, rogue

Funny thing about extra attacks for spellcasters is unless they "would have already gotten it by selecting a subclass, such as College of Swords or Bladesinger", they aren't likely to use it because their cantrips and other spells are superior IME. Also, given the amount of experience required, all the other classes won't get Extra Attack for quite a while after the warrior-classes already do.

It would be like giving warriors "Cantrip Ability" at higher levels. Maybe useful once in a while, but not their bread-and-butter move. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it being a major buff for casters to get Extra Attack.

TaranTheWanderer · Apr 13, 2020

This is just my first impression because I haven't looked at every class closely.

I noticed the proficiency progression goes to +6. With a game going only to 12th and your BBEG being Beholders etc, is there a need for a +6 Proficiency. I think you could spread it out more evenly (a boost every 3 levels) and have it cap out at +5.

I'll pop in for more feedback once I've given the thorough reading it deserves.

DND_Reborn · Apr 13, 2020

TaranTheWanderer said:
This is just my first impression because I haven't looked at every class closely.

I noticed the proficiency progression goes to +6. With a game going only to 12th and your BBEG being Beholders etc, is there a need for a +6 Proficiency. I think you could spread it out more evenly (a boost every 3 levels) and have it cap out at +5.

I'll pop in for more feedback once I've given the thorough reading it deserves.

Well, I guess I wanted it sort of like a capstone feature, a real bump for 12th level and later play and an incentive to really "reach for the stars" so to say. Would it hurt to remove it? Certainly not, but I think it is nice having it in there.

FWIW, in our regular 20-level game, proficiency bonus goes up to +8 at 18th-level. This follows the same progression we currently use, but stops at level 12.

I look forward to any other comments!

Minigiant · Apr 13, 2020

dnd4vr said:
Seriously though, I never saw it as any kind of trap, myself. Now, in AD&D the bonus applied to any "giant-class" humanoid at the bonus was equal to your ranger level. Maybe I could make it versatile? Something like you can change your favored enemy selection with each level, or if you spend a week of downtime studying weaknesses or something you can change it? That way if you know you are going up against a particular foe, it is more useful as you can prepare for it.

In 2e and later, giant class was just giants.
In OD&D and 1e, giant class was everything from koblods and goblins to orcs, to gnomes to treants to giants. Every nonhuman with two arms and 2 legs and no wings was "giant class."

Changing it during downtime was a popular homebrew back in the day.

dnd4vr said:
Funny thing about extra attacks for spellcasters is unless they "would have already gotten it by selecting a subclass, such as College of Swords or Bladesinger", they aren't likely to use it because their cantrips and other spells are superior IME. Also, given the amount of experience required, all the other classes won't get Extra Attack for quite a while after the warrior-classes already do.

It would be like giving warriors "Cantrip Ability" at higher levels. Maybe useful once in a while, but not their bread-and-butter move. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it being a major buff for casters to get Extra Attack.

I meant in relation to removing subclasses from warriors.
Giving full casters Extra Attack and replacing warrior's boosts with a skill and cantrips is something to watch for in playtesting. That's all. Just playtesting advice. Playtesting has been the bane of D&D for decades.

Horwath · Apr 13, 2020

dnd4vr said:
Hmm... Look out, it's a trap!!! LOL

Seriously though, I never saw it as any kind of trap, myself. Now, in AD&D the bonus applied to any "giant-class" humanoid at the bonus was equal to your ranger level. Maybe I could make it versatile? Something like you can change your favored enemy selection with each level, or if you spend a week of downtime studying weaknesses or something you can change it? That way if you know you are going up against a particular foe, it is more useful as you can prepare for it.

giving specific bonuses that might never come up in sessions is a bad design by default.

You can make favored enemies as a feature but make bonuses usable all around.

I.E:

Favored enemy;
- dragons:
1st lvl; advantage on saves vs. fear, draconic bonus language
6th lvl: evasion

- Humanoid:
1st level: proficiency in 2 skills from the list of: insight, deception, persuasion, intimidation plus 2 extra languages
6th lvl: expertise in 2 skills from the list of: insight, deception, persuasion, intimidation

- Fey:
1st level: advantage vs charm, sylvan language
6th level: immunity to charm

etc....

DND_Reborn · Apr 13, 2020

Horwath said:
giving specific bonuses that might never come up in sessions is a bad design by default.

You can make favored enemies as a feature but make bonuses usable all around.

I.E:

Favored enemy;
- dragons:
1st lvl; advantage on saves vs. fear, draconic bonus language
6th lvl: evasion

- Humanoid:
1st level: proficiency in 2 skills from the list of: insight, deception, persuasion, intimidation plus 2 extra languages
6th lvl: expertise in 2 skills from the list of: insight, deception, persuasion, intimidation

- Fey:
1st level: advantage vs charm, sylvan language
6th level: immunity to charm

etc....

Hmm... maybe. But Rangers would need some sort of damage buff as well I think.

I'll have to review the lists of enemies and see what else might work, but this is a good start for going in this direction.

Horwath · Apr 13, 2020

dnd4vr said:
Hmm... maybe. But Rangers would need some sort of damage buff as well I think.

I'll have to review the lists of enemies and see what else might work, but this is a good start for going in this direction.

they sure do need a little bump.
But giving +2/+4 vs one or two groups that might not come up is not a good solution IMHO.

It's like having a supercar in garage while all the roads are destroyed by earthquakes or tsunamis.
You need an ATV that can go everywhere, not just on a race track.

tetrasodium · Apr 13, 2020

Some interesting stuff in there with weapon & armor changes being quite interesting but druids get an awful lot of their strength from their archetype so the druid might be a bit lacking (and seems to be from my quick skim)

DND_Reborn · Apr 13, 2020

tetrasodium said:
Some interesting stuff in there with weapon & armor changes being quite interesting but druids get an awful lot of their strength from their archetype so the druid might be a bit lacking (and seems to be from my quick skim)

Honestly, they were my greatest concern in removing the subclass.

I am hoping the adjustments to Wild Shape (which are quite good) make up for it.

1. You gain flying speed and swimming speed at level 2, not waiting until level 4 and 8.
2. You can change forms multiple times with a single use as long as you don't return to your normal form (by choice or by force).
3. You can (ultimately) change into CR 2 creatures, with normally is not allowed (unless you are Circle of the Moon).

Now, I have extra features I could put in with Druid, but I didn't want to make them too powerful or give them too much compared to other classes. Here are some options I have thought of:

Would any of those help without being too much?

D&D 5E A L12 (level 12 limit) Variant

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