D&D 5E A L12 (level 12 limit) Variant

[DND_Reborn]

I'd probably put them at 3 and replace Primeval Awareness, 1 is character creation and 2 already has a ton of decision points.

Don't you think having both at level 3 and Proficiency is a bit much though?

Since Canny already gives a skill, I suppose I could remove Proficiency...

 

[TwoSix]

Don't you think having both at level 3 and Proficiency is a bit much though?

Since Canny already gives a skill, I suppose I could remove Proficiency...

That's fair. Tough, there's a lot of features to juggle in the 1st 3 levels. I would say I don't think the Ranger should get a BA upgrade before the rogue, or Expertise before Rogue (since that's part of the Rogue's major schtick.) But you're right that Canny and Proficiency have a lot of conceptual overlap.

Maybe Canny at 2, and move Fighting Style to 3 with Rover? Gives the Ranger a one-level delay on his Expertise and BA upgrade compared to Rogue.

Heh, this is why I'm glad my own work only has 3 classes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's fair. Tough, there's a lot of features to juggle in the 1st 3 levels. I would say I don't think the Ranger should get a BA upgrade before the rogue, or Expertise before Rogue (since that's part of the Rogue's major schtick.) But you're right that Canny and Proficiency have a lot of conceptual overlap.

Maybe Canny at 2, and move Fighting Style to 3 with Rover? Gives the Ranger a one-level delay on his Expertise and BA upgrade compared to Rogue.

Heh, this is why I'm glad my own work only has 3 classes.

Yeah, juggling those early levels (especially when adding stuff) is tough at times. I'll look at it some more and see where they fall. Of course, I might tweak them a bit in the process (big surprise there!).

I've toyed with the 3-class concept: Battler, Caster, Skilled. Is that your breakdown? If you have a doc prepared, I'd love to review it!

 

[Horwath]

very nice. it is true that most game break around 12th level
Maybe make full casters with spells from 1-7th level and as you did, half casters at 4th level spell.

Full casters:
1st level spells at 1st class level,
2nd lvl spells at 2nd level,
3rd lvl spells at 4th level,
4th lvl spells at 6th level,
5th lvl spells at 8th level,
6th lvl spells at 10th level,
7th lvl spells at 12th level,

halfcasters:
1st level spells at 2nd class level,
2nd lvl spells at 4th level,
3rd lvl spells at 8th level,
4th lvl spells at 12th level,

1/3 casters:
1st level spells at 3rd class level,
2nd lvl spells at 6th level,
3rd lvl spells at 12th level,


But I do like subclasses and you still have favored enemy for Rangers. ughh... get rid of that ASAP.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah, juggling those early levels (especially when adding stuff) is tough at times. I'll look at it some more and see where they fall. Of course, I might tweak them a bit in the process (big surprise there!).

I've toyed with the 3-class concept: Battler, Caster, Skilled. Is that your breakdown? If you have a doc prepared, I'd love to review it!

Yea, in general (although they're called Warrior, Mage, Rogue). It's a conversion I'm doing of the OSR game Beyond the Wall (which is one of my favorite games ever), just using the more robust action economy and spell lists of 5e.

Basically, you generate your stats and background features using the Beyond the Wall playbooks. The playbook tells you what class you are (Warrior, Mage, Rogue, or a hybrid between 2). Warrior get Knacks and Weapon Specialization, which I've converted into special feats. Rogues normally get bonus skills, which I've converted into, well, bonus skills and Expertise.

Mages are a little different. The playbooks give them some cantrips, spells, and rituals, which I've converted into 5e equivalents. My own change is that magic is intrinsically an external process, you can't simply cast a spell, you have to imbue a focus item and cast through that. So cantrips are cast through a special cantrip wand, which has 7 charges and recharges once per day (either dawn, dusk, noon, or midnight, chosen when the wand is made.) Spells are imbued into special items during a long rest, and recharge once per day (again, dawn, dusk, noon, midnight, chosen per spell during the long rest.) Rituals take no character resources, but are cast from spellbooks and require hours of time and special reagents.

Each class has 6 extra options available at 1st level, from which they pick 2. Each one is keyed to a different ability score, so that a high Intelligence, low Strength warrior is viable, and so is a high Strength, low Intelligence mage.

The main house rules I'm using are: 1) Short rests are 6 hours, and long rests are 72 hours and require a rest at a civilized location. 2) You can use your proficiency modifier in place of your stat modifier for weapon attacks, spell attacks, and spell DCs.

 

[DND_Reborn]

very nice. it is true that most game break around 12th level
Maybe make full casters with spells from 1-7th level and as you did, half casters at 4th level spell.

Full casters:
1st level spells at 1st class level,
2nd lvl spells at 2nd level,
3rd lvl spells at 4th level,
4th lvl spells at 6th level,
5th lvl spells at 8th level,
6th lvl spells at 10th level,
7th lvl spells at 12th level,

halfcasters:
1st level spells at 2nd class level,
2nd lvl spells at 4th level,
3rd lvl spells at 8th level,
4th lvl spells at 12th level,

1/3 casters:
1st level spells at 3rd class level,
2nd lvl spells at 6th level,
3rd lvl spells at 12th level,


But I do like subclasses and you still have favored enemy for Rangers. ughh... get rid of that ASAP.

I actually thought about doing that spell progress for the Wizard only (their edge on spells), but decided instead to go with more spell slots instead.

I know a lot of people like sublcasses, but as I said in the OP this variant removes them as a feature, not a bug. And I like favored enemies as they are here, but not in the PHB.

And without sublcasses there are no 1/3 casters.

So, glad you like some of the work, but I hardly expect everyone to like a lot of it.

 

[Minigiant]

Eh

At first glance... the first thing that come out to me is.... All subclasses are not the same across classes.

Some classes are more dependent on their subclass for power than others. Making them all proficiency, breaks it.. Like replacing the ranger is heavily dependent on subclass whereas fighter care only slightly, and paladin subclasses is mostly just flavor. Like your ranger is unplayable without it 3rd level damage boost and level 11 special attack. Whereas your bard and paladin are jumping for joy.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Eh

At first glance... the first thing that come out to me is.... All subclasses are not the same across classes.

Some classes are more dependent on their subclass for power than others. Making them all proficiency, breaks it.. Like replacing the ranger is heavily dependent on subclass whereas fighter care only slightly, and paladin subclasses is mostly just flavor. Like your ranger is unplayable without it 3rd level damage boost and level 11 special attack. Whereas your bard and paladin are jumping for joy.

Very true, all subclasses are not the same. The core paladin, for instance, is certainly one of the strongest classes without subclass features.

So, yes all of them became proficiencies, and the added features are what balances it out. For myself, the revised Favored Enemy and Greater Favored Enemy are pretty good upgrades. Greater favored enemy makes the bump +4 after all and if you select humanoids or other common foes, it is used often. If you have been reading the other posts, you will see I am discussing adding one or two more features for Ranger, but nothing crazy.

I am a bit worried about Sudden Inspiration for Bard being too powerful, but I don't think it will be too OP. So, while I can see the Bard being excited about it, I can hardly see the Paladin jumping for joy over Mantle of Faith. Also, with the Divine Smite nerf to once per turn, I think it is fairly balanced.

Anyway, I'll keep your points in mind and add them to the list for when I play test it. Hopefully it will play okay and won't be as bad as you might imagine. Thanks!

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

P.S. Feel free to steal whatever you like LOL. I have a ton of homebrew features I am not using here if you want to see them--maybe some of them will fit your vision?

Men I'd like to, IIRC, there's not a single element of the game you havent modified, I'm really curious to see what I'd be able to ''borrow''

 

[Minigiant]

Very true, all subclasses are not the same. The core paladin, for instance, is certainly one of the strongest classes without subclass features.

So, yes all of them became proficiencies, and the added features are what balances it out. For myself, the revised Favored Enemy and Greater Favored Enemy are pretty good upgrades. Greater favored enemy makes the bump +4 after all and if you select humanoids or other common foes, it is used often. If you have been reading the other posts, you will see I am discussing adding one or two more features for Ranger, but nothing crazy.

Your Favored enemy option looks like it falls back on the 3e traps of before. 5e more or less has an "almost always on" +2 of damage for rangers. The Hunter, Gloom Stalker, HW, and Monster Slayer all give a super reliable extra attack or 1d6 bonus damage. I very quickly recognized the 3e FE that "didn't work without DM a headache" version. And all the ranger subclasses give a special attack, bonus damage, or extra attack at level 11. It stuck out because it looked like 3e's.

Especially will Extra attack handed out so freely

I am a bit worried about Sudden Inspiration for Bard being too powerful, but I don't think it will be too OP. So, while I can see the Bard being excited about it, I can hardly see the Paladin jumping for joy over Mantle of Faith. Also, with the Divine Smite nerf to once per turn, I think it is fairly balanced.

It was Extra Attack I was worrying about. Extra attackers with full casting worries me when the normal Extra attacker don't get their subclass boosts.

If I were to make tiers of subclass dependency

Heavily: cleric, ranger, warlock
Moderately: bard, druid, fighter, sorcerer, wizard
Lightly: barbarian, monk paladin, rogue