D&D 5E Shield Saltiness

Flamestrike said:

I raise Asia because I've also worn Armor. There. For real. Specifically a plate carrier with ceramic inserts and a helmet. Something like this:

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And it's heavy, cumbersome and hot and sweaty. And just like you, I looked forward to taking it off at the end of the day, despite its ability to actually keep me alive.

There is no way I would wear armour, even modern motocross armour or a plate carrier etc around all day, every day. There is no way (and no historical precedent) for a person to wear medieval armour around all day, every day.

Warriors don their armour only for battle or ceremonial reasons, because (compared to normal clothes) it's heavy, hot, cumbersome and socially inappropriate to wear in most other situations. Knights didn't just wander around town in chain mail hauberks doing their shopping, any more than Samurai wear their armour while doing the same thing, or modern special forces wear their plate carriers when doing it.

There is a reason warriors do (and have always) only ever wear heavy armour (or indeed any armour at all) when preparing for battle, or for ceremonies.

It's because armour is a pain in the ass to wear for extended periods of time (it's hot, cumbersome and heavy, and it pinches and chafes you), and its socially (and in many places legally) inappropriate to do so.

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Again I roll my eyes. Yes, I understood the first time that you were trying to leverage some form of military service as a "win" button in an internet argument. Good for you.

Now, if you're done trying to invent a pissing contest to try to win, we can discuss the actual topic.

If your armor pinches, or significantly chafes outside of days on end without changing into fresh underclothes (by which I mean all the clothes under that armor, not underclothes in the sense of boxers and such), then you have armor that doesn't fit you well. That sucks, and if you're American then I apologize on behalf of our government that my tax money was used to buy you uncomfortable armor. There are a lot of other things that they spend money on that is total BS, even just within the defense budget.

A decent set of medieval armor does not pinch or chafe. It just gets hot and sweaty.

As for social norms, the discussion has nothing at all to do with a normal social scenario, the OP is playing Curse of Strahd. Damn right I'm not walking about fracking Barovia without my gear on.

However, even beyond all this absurd topic, it'd a dnd game. Most people don't try to engage deeply with realistic social norms from the Middle Ages in their DnD, which makes sense, because DnD is rarely taking place in a world that could possibly actually resemble Medieval Europe all that much.

Hell, even if we did try to do so, bet your ass knights did walk about in chainmail when they were in enemy territory in a context of imminent danger.

Flamestrike said:

I raise Asia because I've also worn Armor. There. For real. Specifically a plate carrier with ceramic inserts and a helmet. Something like this:

View attachment 129896

And it's heavy, cumbersome and hot and sweaty. And just like you, I looked forward to taking it off at the end of the day, despite its ability to actually keep me alive.

There is no way I would wear armour, even modern motocross armour or a plate carrier etc around all day, every day. There is no way (and no historical precedent) for a person to wear medieval armour around all day, every day.

Warriors don their armour only for battle or ceremonial reasons, because (compared to normal clothes) it's heavy, hot, cumbersome and socially inappropriate to wear in most other situations. Knights didn't just wander around town in chain mail hauberks doing their shopping, any more than Samurai wear their armour while doing the same thing, or modern special forces wear their plate carriers when doing it.

There is a reason warriors do (and have always) only ever wear heavy armour (or indeed any armour at all) when preparing for battle, or for ceremonies.

It's because armour is a pain in the ass to wear for extended periods of time (it's hot, cumbersome and heavy, and it pinches and chafes you), and its socially (and in many places legally) inappropriate to do so.

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Do what makes sense in your campaign, but actual plate armor weighed between 35 and 55 pounds, far less than most soldiers are asked to carry. In addition, it was custom fitted to distribute weight.

I will agree that people didn't walk around town in plate armor often, but then again they didn't have to worry about being jumped by a werewolf as they walked down the street.

Also, fantasy game.

Constantly carrying a shield on your arm is pretty silly, though. The DM is right about that.

A weight on your arm is very noticeable, no matter how much you practice carrying it around.

Actually, if not on high alert, knights would wear gambeson. As soon as they would be on alert, armor would be worn all day. Gambeson was so linked with knights that it became a fashion trend and many wealthy commoners such as merchants and lesser nobles would wear it.

So the "no one wears armor" in a town does not bear scrutiny. But it is of note that heavy armor was not worn at all time but it was not outlawed either. If you had such an armor, it meant that you could afford it. If you could afford it. You were either a knight or a noble and thus, allowed by divine law to wear it. Only the Lord of the place would have the authority to deny you the divine right to wear it (or bear arms for that matters).

Etiquette also forced the knights in arms and armor to come and annouce himself to the local Lord. Arrangements would be reached as to what the local Lord would allow. And from one noble to an other, the knight could do pretty much what he wanted, especially if indentured to a higher noble than the local Lord himself.

The knight in full arms and armor in town was not a rare sight, but it was not a common sight either.

doctorbadwolf said:

Again I roll my eyes. Yes, I understood the first time that you were trying to leverage some form of military service as a "win" button in an internet argument. Good for you.

SNIP

Hell, even if we did try to do so, bet your ass knights did walk about in chainmail when they were in enemy territory in a context of imminent danger.

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Please try and be a little nicer. Its the wrong armor, plate is better fitted but I wore armor all day in actual combat isn't using the military to win an argument but actual practical life or death experience with body armor in roughly the correct weight category

Understand I'm not doubting your experiences or Flamestrike's in anyway but armor is a funny thing. some can handle it long periods, some cannot. The general scientific consensus have been able to find is that good full armor increases fatigue rates twofold and slows the wearer by 10% or so.

Also D&D armor kind of assumes a high level of custom fitting which you won't see in munitions grade or off the shelf armor like Flamestrike was talking about.

Also while my experiences with armor are more limited than either of yours, many people have trouble wearing armor all the time. Helmets especially get taken off for comfort and , we see so many examples in history of people getting killed by arrows of bullets with helmets off even in ancient sources.

Anecdotal here, not evidence my SCA friends male and female often complained of armor bites in any condition where there was a ton of movement especially combat. This is because of poor fitting and materials.

Hot US states like Florida need policies where police caught with armor off on duty will be fired. Its just that uncomfortable.

Also some people wearing good armor are simply miserable, anyone who wants can search You Tube and see videos where people wearing armor in cold or hot conditions with considerable discomfort.

Still in D&D it probably doesn't matter . Any proficient PC is doughty enough to handle it and that D&D mostly doesn't bother with that kind rules anyway. Social reactions are game world driven, so yes Ravenloft, no in other games. That's all up to you.

IMO here in a more realism driven version, not an oxymoron with 5e , ,masterwork armor would be comfortable all day and others would not.

Just be aware that over use of no armor here will make armor using PC's l less balanced in a fight though.

doctorbadwolf said:

Again I roll my eyes. Yes, I understood the first time that you were trying to leverage some form of military service as a "win" button in an internet argument. Good for you.

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It was better than your 'I cosplayed as a Knight during a LARP tourney' once argument.

doctorbadwolf said:

If your armor pinches, or significantly chafes outside of days on end without changing into fresh underclothes (by which I mean all the clothes under that armor, not underclothes in the sense of boxers and such), then you have armor that doesn't fit you well. That sucks, and if you're American then I apologize on behalf of our government that my tax money was used to buy you uncomfortable armor. There are a lot of other things that they spend money on that is total BS, even just within the defense budget.

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It's unavoidable! When you're wearing 20kgs of plates (ceramic or steel) encased in kevlar or cloth, you're going to get chafing and sweating. Sitting (and lying) down and standing up, and doing normal basic tasks become more difficult.

You can get a comfortable backpack with 20kgs in it and wear it around town all day, but I assure you, by the end of the day you're going to be sweaty and sore and are going to want to put it down. You're not going to want to wear it around town doing your shopping, sight seeing, getting dinner and so forth.

doctorbadwolf said:

As for social norms, the discussion has nothing at all to do with a normal social scenario, the OP is playing Curse of Strahd.

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Relevant to an extent (Barovia is dangerous, its poorly policed, you are being watched by a powerful vampire, and the locals have seen it all), but it would still be super weird seeing someone walk into town in full plate armour, order an ale, before retiring to their room, and then come back down from their room, still decked out in the panoply of war.

Even in Barovia there are social norms to follow. At a bare minimum the dude in armour in such a scenario would be getting disadvantage to Charisma checks (barring Intimidate, where they might actually get advantage) and would be flat out refused service in many shops.

Image being a shopkeeper and some dude rocks into your shop wearing a plate carrier and ballistic helmet. You would be pushing the red panic button and lifting the security screens before he got 2 steps in the room.

doctorbadwolf said:

However, even beyond all this absurd topic, it'd a dnd game. Most people don't try to engage deeply with realistic social norms from the Middle Ages in their DnD

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Irrelevant to me. I expect realistic human behaviour from my PCs and reject absurdism.

Taking off your armour in town after a hard week on the road wearing it most of the day, and after numerous battles, is what a normal, sane human would do.

There is no 'in game' reason to do so (other than the DM slapping an exhaustion level on you for basically unrealistically living in your armour 24/7, and penalties to social interactions, or outright refusal of many PCs to even want to talk to you), but that doesnt take away from the utter absurdity of someone wearing armour all day, every day, even in towns and during downtime.

It doesnt happen. It has no historical precedent. It's absurd.

Oofta said:

Do what makes sense in your campaign, but actual plate armor weighed between 35 and 55 pounds, far less than most soldiers are asked to carry. In addition, it was custom fitted to distribute weight.

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Mate, a plate carrier with inserts weighs around 25 lbs (around 10kgs). Slap 8 magazines, a radio, batteries, a FAK, knife, sling, retention lanyard, etc etc on it and you're at 40lbs+ in the blink of an eye. It only protects the chest and abdomen (and back and sides to a limited degree), and limits movement only slightly (you run slower, tire faster, cant sit or lie down properly) compared to a full suit of armor (greaves, gauntlets etc).

And you don't want to be wearing that 24/7. When in a relatively safe area (behind the wire in the rear echelon, or in a bunker etc) you tend to take it off because it's a pain in the ass to wear.

That's just the reality of it. I (personally) prefer depicting real people with real problems, and not some insane 'always in plate armour, even when doing my groceries' guy.

I'm more than happy for my AC to be 10+Dex from time to time because it would be stupid to assume I would be wearing armour while eating dinner or going shopping or relaxing at the local brothel, or seeing the sights in town.

You do you though. If you want to be this guy:



...then go nuts.

DM: The fair maiden gives your PC a wink and a nod and invites you back to her place at midnight.
Player: Awesome! I'll head over there at midnight.
DM: What are you wearing to your date?
Player: Full plate and great sword. Naturally.

Some of y’all are taking the walking around in armour thing far more serious than I ever would. I’ve never even thought about that nor have I ever heard it discussed before. On one hand I get that the pally would be real stinky and tired if they wore the armour all day whilst shopping for healers kits and rope. On the other hand, would an armed group of adventurers be that out of the ordinary if there was a need for such folk? Like, if goblins and dragons and mind flayers are a real problem, wouldn’t just about everyone be armed if they could afford it? And if you couldn’t afford to protect yourself from such horrors, wouldn’t you be grateful there were people who had the tools and the talent to deal with them?

Brotton Goodfellow said:

Some of y’all are taking the walking around in armour thing far more serious than I ever would. I’ve never even thought about that nor have I ever heard it discussed before. On one hand I get that the pally would be real stinky and tired if they wore the armour all day whilst shopping for healers kits and rope. On the other hand, would an armed group of adventurers be that out of the ordinary if there was a need for such folk? Like, if goblins and dragons and mind flayers are a real problem, wouldn’t just about everyone be armed if they could afford it? And if you couldn’t afford to protect yourself from such horrors, wouldn’t you be grateful there were people who had the tools and the talent to deal with them?

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No, like people dont walk around literal warzones wearing amour and bearing arms all the time. Including soldiers.