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D&D 5E Rogues are Awesome. Is it the Tasha's Effect?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
There is, absent environmental or status effects, only one way to lose or gain line of effect on a target: Moving. If you can't see your target in your current spot, you have to Move out of it. The rules in that case are once again unambiguous. Move happened before Attack, so when you make your attack, you're not hidden.

I think much if this argument comes down to how we conceptualize the rules. Personally, I started with 4e, where everything is expressed clearly in terms of pure mechanics. You can make up your own in-fiction explanation for Daily Powers, healing surges, or Minor Actions, but it doesn't really matter. I instinctively read 5e the same way, particularly in combat, which reads a lot like 4e. So when I read, "when you make an attack," I read, more or less, "when you declare you are taking the Attack Action against a valid target," and if there's any question about status effects that affect the d20 rolls, any status in effect when you declare the action applies to the roll unless the rules explicitly state otherwise, as in they literally say, "before you roll the attack."

Seems like others conceptualize things in terms of the in-fiction world, then try to adjudicate how the mechanics apply. We all agree something like this can happen:

The rogue is hidden behind the shrubbery. He spies a Knight of Ni. He draws a bolt from his quiver, slips it into his hand crossbow, and pulls back the cord. There is a click as it notches into place. He peeks out, extends an arm, takes careful aim and pulls the trigger. The crossbow twangs. A bolt flies through the air.

We likewise all agree this causes the rogue to lose his hiding spot. But what causes him to lose his hiding spot? The click? The peek? The aim? The twang? The bolt? And when is the d20 rolled? At the beginning of the sequence? The middle? The end? The fiction-first approach makes this totally ambiguous, because how you narrate affects the mechanics, which is why there's so much argument from that camp.

I argue the fiction-first reading is fundamentally misunderstanding the way mechanics are supposed to apply, and the whole point of the "Unseen attackers" rule is to eliminate precisely this kind of ambiguity (and the writers back me up on this in the podcast). The in-fiction reason the knight notices mechanically irrelevant. You can narrate this however you like. The mechanical reason he notices is the Attack Action. An Attack Action always spoils Hide, and the effect is always applied after a hit or miss is resolved. No need to argue over sufficient degrees of peeking; they don't matter. This is in line with pretty much how every other 5e rule is written, and the general approach taken by Crawford when answering questions.
This is what you may be not seeing. If my rogue is behind a wall and your knight enters combat, completely unaware that my rogue is there, you are going to be unable to compensate for him in time when he pops up to shoot you. Call it mini-surprise if it helps. My rogue has you dead to rights(advantage on that attack) and he doesn't lose it until after he attacks and you have time to react to his presence. That's one of the reasons why the rule is written the way it is.
 

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Oofta

Legend
This is what you may be not seeing. If my rogue is behind a wall and your knight enters combat, completely unaware that my rogue is there, you are going to be unable to compensate for him in time when he pops up to shoot you. Call it mini-surprise if it helps. My rogue has you dead to rights(advantage on that attack) and he doesn't lose it until after he attacks and you have time to react to his presence. That's one of the reasons why the rule is written the way it is.

That's sort of how it would work in my game with a couple of caveats. First, is the target already engaged with someone that's in direct line of sight to the rogue? Because if so there's a good chance they won't be caught by surprise.

The next is that this may work the first time but in most cases will not work the second. They know to expect an attack from that corner so they're going to be waiting for it. If the rogue can find a different vantage point that's a different story, see caveat number 1.

The rogue should be getting sneak attack on most attacks, they don't need advantage on every attack.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
. He says you can peak out around a corner, or from behind a rock, as long as you're leaning out from behind the cover and not moving.
At what time does he say this? I listened to the entire thing and did not hear this.

I heard him repeatedly say you must fire from the place where you are hidden. What I capitalized above were exact word for word quotes for the audio you posted.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
On the topic of being able to attack with a ranged weapon from hiding, I agree with @Mistwell 100%. It's plain as day to anyone who has listened to the Jeremy Crawford podcast on Stealth that the lead designer intended for rogues to be able to hide in combat in order to gain advantage on ranged attacks when they lean out to shoot.
That is not what he said. He said over and over again that they have to shoot from "the place where you are hiding". He also specified in his post that "shooting from cover and running out into the open are not the same thing"

I agree 100% he wants people to hide in combat and Rogues, particularly ranged Rogues to regularly gain advantage from it but at no point does he suggest you are hidden when the enemy can see you and very, very clearly says the benifit "does not stick with you if you invalidate being hidden before the attack roll".
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
At what time does he say this? I listened to the entire thing and did not hear this.

I heard him repeatedly say you must fire from the place where you are hidden. What I capitalized above were exact word for word quotes for the audio you posted.
There's nothing contradictory about peeking out around the corner while still being in the place where you are hiding.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
There's nothing contradictory about peeking out around the corner while still being in the place where you are hiding.
If you are visible there certainly is because you are not "unseen", and if you are not unseen you are not hidden RAW and RAI. Also the line of sight rules in the DMG would limit "looking out" from most areas that provide cover to hide in.

If you can be hidden while your head is "peeking out" then why would you need to get behind the wall to hide to start with? Couldn't you take the hide action while you are standing there with your head and crossbow sticking out?
 
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Oofta

Legend
There's nothing contradictory about peeking out around the corner while still being in the place where you are hiding.
In general line of sight is two-way. If I can see you, you can see me. Are you seriously saying that you could not see the guy in this picture?
images.jpg


Whether the target is going to notice the person peeking around the corner is up to the DM.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
I agree 100% he wants people to hide in combat and Rogues, particularly ranged Rogues to regularly gain advantage from it but at no point does he suggest you are hidden when the enemy can see you and very, very clearly says the benifit "does not stick with you if you invalidate being hidden before the attack roll".
You're assuming that someone peeking out of a hiding place can be seen - or more to the point, is actually being seen. Let the stealth vs perception check handle that. If the perception check fails, then don't sweat it if the rogue is peeking out to take his shot. The target has lost track of exactly where he is and doesn't see him.
As I said upthread - if your interpretation of the rules is so strict that it prevents the class feature or genre-appropriate trope from working - then loosen up your interpretation. Rogues are supposed to be able to snipe from behind corners, behind a pile of crates, characters are supposed to be able to briefly peek out from behind these things without automatically being seen - you see it in movies and read it in fantasy literature all the time. Let the stealth vs perception check determine if the hiding character is spotted if the space they're in is otherwise suitable and they're trying to hide even if they're peeking out from time to time.
 

Oofta

Legend
You're assuming that someone peeking out of a hiding place can be seen - or more to the point, is actually being seen. Let the stealth vs perception check handle that. If the perception check fails, then don't sweat it if the rogue is peeking out to take his shot. The target has lost track of exactly where he is and doesn't see him.
As I said upthread - if your interpretation of the rules is so strict that it prevents the class feature or genre-appropriate trope from working - then loosen up your interpretation. Rogues are supposed to be able to snipe from behind corners, behind a pile of crates, characters are supposed to be able to briefly peek out from behind these things without automatically being seen - you see it in movies and read it in fantasy literature all the time. Let the stealth vs perception check determine if the hiding character is spotted if the space they're in is otherwise suitable and they're trying to hide even if they're peeking out from time to time.
You can't be hidden if you are clearly seen, It can take as little as 13 milliseconds to register an image. It's up to the DM to decide if you're distracted enough for it to register. 🤷‍♂️
 

auburn2

Adventurer
You're assuming that someone peeking out of a hiding place can be seen - or more to the point, is actually being seen. Let the stealth vs perception check handle that. If the perception check fails, then don't sweat it if the rogue is peeking out to take his shot. The target has lost track of exactly where he is and doesn't see him.
As I said upthread - if your interpretation of the rules is so strict that it prevents the class feature or genre-appropriate trope from working - then loosen up your interpretation. Rogues are supposed to be able to snipe from behind corners, behind a pile of crates, characters are supposed to be able to briefly peek out from behind these things without automatically being seen - you see it in movies and read it in fantasy literature all the time. Let the stealth vs perception check determine if the hiding character is spotted if the space they're in is otherwise suitable and they're trying to hide even if they're peeking out from time to time.
To start with he line of sight rules in the DMG talk about this specifically. If a line from one corner of the square you are on has a clear line to a corner of a square the enemy is on then both of you can see each other. If it doesn't then niether of you can see each other. There is no situation with a solid obstacle where only one of the parties has line of sight according to those rules. Now I would not rule that way with a character trying to hide in my game. If the bottom left corner is exposed but the rest are not I would let him say he is scrunched up on the right side of the square ... but in that case he is scrunched up on the right side of the square and he doesn't see the enemy. If lines to all 4 corners are broken he can't see the enemy from that square at all, he needs to move to a different square to get line of sight.

It does not prevent use of the class feature at all. It prevents use of metagaming in a way that was not intended. Being able to hide as a bonus action by itself is huge, with or without the advantage. You can get advantage from it as well, just not in the silly way people here are trying to say you can. You have to shoot from a hidden position, it is that simple.

For example - let's say it one Rogue against 5 orcs. He runs behind a large tree in an otherwise completely open field in broad daylight and takes the hide action. I will agree he is hidden. The Orcs saw him run behind the tree and take ready action and are going to shoot as soon as he sticks his head out. They are staring right at the tree with bows drawn, are you really going to tell me they can't see him when he sticks his head out like the guy in the photo above? If it was your PC playing one of the orcs would you say, "oh yeah he can stick out his head and I won't see him".

Now, how can this Rogue make effective use of his ability? Well instead of sticking his head out he can climb the tree on the backside staying hidden. He could get up on the branches, if there are thick branches and foilage he can sneak out on one of them. He can take the dash action too while hidden and climb/move up to 60' on the tree with climbing counting twice. Now maybe he can make an attack FROM HIDING where he can not be seen by the orcs, being obscured by leaves that do not stop his arrows. Now he can shoot down on one of them. When he does they yell "he is there up in the trees", assuming he didn't dash he can take a bonus action and try to hide again right after the shot, either right where he is or another branch similarly obscured. If successful they don't know where he is in those branches. Is he where he shot from, did he go further down the branch, did he climb back down behind the trunk? The orcs can shoot into the branches, one takes a guess he stayed in the same place and looses an arrow. If he guessed right he rolls with disadvantage. If he guessed wrong it is just a miss. Next turn Rogue does it again .... rinse and repeat.

Now the example I gave above is very difficult situation for the rogue tyring to hide in broad daylight with only one thing to get cover behind. It is not a very favorable setup for the Rogue, but I still gave an example of how he could try to hide AND get advantage. Your Rogue should be looking for these kinds of things to make the most of his abilities, while playing the game RAI.

Another example: You stumble on some orcs in a dungeon. Your Paladin runs forward with the torch in one hand and sword in the other and engages the orcs. You start the turn 25 feet from the orcs. You know they have darkvision and can see in darkness as dim light out to 60 feet. You move 30' backwards and take the dash bonus action to go another 10 feet, putting yourself out of their darkvision range. Now you are in darkness and completely obscured. You can't both hide and attack this turn because you already used your BA. However your enemy can't see you, so you have advantage anyway (you can see them well because they are brightly lit). You shoot with advantage and SA. You are not "hidden" the orcs not fighting the paladin know right where you are and can shoot at you but with disadvantage because they can't "see" you. Next round you shoot again with advantage before hiding, then you take hide, maybe you move to the other side of the hallway or back up another 10 feet, maybe you dont. Now the orcs have to guess where you are to shoot you AND if they guess right they still get disadvantage because they don't see you.

That is how a Rogue should be making effective use of his abilities and getting advantage and SA. Further if the Rogue in the 2nd example had skulker he would not have to retreat 40 feet, he could retreat 20' to get out of the 40 foot torchlight radius and take hide inside the orcs darkvision range because he can hide in dim light. This is not as good in this example because he has to succeed in a hide check, and he can get to actual darkness by taking dash instead but if it was someone with longer darkvision, like Drow it would be an effective way to hide.
 
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