Justice and Rule
Hero
Ehhhhh kind of but not quite? Similar in abstract, but not quite in severity, I would say.
D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.
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Ehhhhh kind of but not quite? Similar in abstract, but not quite in severity, I would say.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Also, just going to cut this one off at the pass, because I know it’s coming: Yes, you can present orcs in a way that makes them sufficiently different from humans to circumvent these issues. If your orcs are like a malevolent demon fungus or something, calling them inherently evil is probably fine. It’s pretty far removed from what people traditionally think of as orcs, but it’s probably fine.
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I don't if it's THAT far removed, since it's pretty much Warhammer orcs.
Justice and Rule
Hero
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Honestly they should have stuck with Baatezu, because everything that happened that made Demons/Devils interesting, at all, happened in the Baatezu/Taanri-era.
The Blood War became possible because these were no longer generic-ass mythological demons/devils, but actually D&D beings with a real identity that could be played with.
The only reason we reverted the name change was to please grogs and help signal that the Satanic Panic was finally over. Yugoloths are still Yugoloths you know! Why? Because Daemon was bloody boring name and too similar to Demon.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Shows how much I know about WarhammerI don't if it's THAT far removed, since it's pretty much Warhammer orcs.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Wow wait you made that up lol? I thought that was just a Warhammer ref. That's literally what they are there.Shows how much I know about Warhammer
Worth noting it's Warhammer 40K lore that got retcon'd into Warhammer Fantasy, for EXACTLY the reasons we're discussing here:
I.e. it was both more interesting, and less problematic. It's practically the poster-boy for this kind of change. It's been extremely popular. You have to work hard to find a Warhammer grog old and grumpy enough to not be happy about the change.
Argyle King
Legend
In theory, I've always been of the impression that Orcs and Elves are thematically intended to be different mirrors of humans: with Orcs being an embodiment of our baser instincts and Elves being some idealized version of what we could be. (In D&D, that's become more blurred over time.)
Half-Orcs were (I think) viewed similar to how some people might now view Tieflings because previous versions of Orcs were (in older versions) viewed as monolithic evil, similar to fiends.
Where I believe that became problematic is when artists and writers started to illustrate those "baser instincts" using elements of real-world ethnicities.
For me, I don't believe the idea of providing reflections humanity is bad, but I do believe how games (and the people who create games) have chosen to illustrate that reflection is a problem.
Years ago, I remember playing the Ultima games. For most of the games, gargoyles were viewed as "evil." However, one of the games turned that idea on its head, as it was revealed that their culture was simply different -and they had been attacking you because actions taken by the protagonist (you) had been harming them.
I wish I could remember which entry in the series that was. It's a game containing ideas which I believe would be applicable to this discussion.
EDIT: I think it was Ultima 6: The False Prophet.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Half-Orcs were (I think) viewed similar to how some people might now view Tieflings because previous versions of Orcs were (in older versions) viewed as monolithic evil, similar to fiends.
Where I believe that became problematic is when artists and writers started to illustrate those "baser instincts" using elements of real-world ethnicities.
For me, I don't believe the idea of providing reflections humanity is bad, but I do believe how games (and the people who create games) have chosen to illustrate that reflection is a problem.
Years ago, I remember playing the Ultima games. For most of the games, gargoyles were viewed as "evil." However, one of the games turned that idea on its head, as it was revealed that their culture was simply different -and they had been attacking you because actions taken by the protagonist (you) had been harming them.
I wish I could remember which entry in the series that was. It's a game containing ideas which I believe would be applicable to this discussion.
EDIT: I think it was Ultima 6: The False Prophet.
Ultima VI: The False Prophet - Wikipedia
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I didn’t exactly make it up - I had the vague concept of fungal orcs in my head, I’m sure from some combination of references I’ve heard in passing. I just didn’t know Warhammer was where the idea came from.
Voadam
Legend
40K's Orks are an interesting popular take that gives orcs a fairly alien biology and reason for being violent brutes with some comedy.Shows how much I know about Warhammer
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