D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Because humans could also fill those roles?
Could humans not fill the role orcs currently fill? Could other, non-human races fill it? Could orcs not fill a role humans don’t, without being limited to one role? I don’t understand why roles need to be so precisely delineated and exclusive for non-human creatures to not be “just humans” in your eyes, and the eyes of seemingly many others. It genuinely doesn’t make sense to me. Even if humans and orcs filled exactly the same roles (which I don’t think they do or should), they still wouldn’t be the same. And the differences between them would still be more than just aesthetic.
Because if they act and behave just like human I see no point?
Do they need a point, other than that they’re cool?
 

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Oofta

Legend
You keep saying this, but it's not what's being asked for. "Having diversity" does not mean "act and behave just like humans." It means having a range of behaviors, which is a descriptor that does apply to humans too, but so does "bipedal, bilaterally symmetric, consuming a mixture of meat and vegetable matter, endothermic, possessing five basic senses, tool-using, animal-domesticating," and a variety of other physiological and behavioral descriptors that apply to both.

So. Why are you leaping from "has diversity" to "is literally identical to a human wearing a funny costume in every possible way"?

So what would they look like to you? How would you distinguish them from humans or the 20-odd other humanoids?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
If Alignment is the issue, that's already been covered though. It's not applied to PCs.

Having a culture that doesn't mesh with its neighbors is fine.

Other than (once again) Volos, what's the problem? Not everyone wants a cosmopolitan world. Eberron is fine, for those who want it. Sigil is conceptually fantastic for subverting tropes.

A world where there isn't massive open migration is going to have strong established cultures. Where those cultures originate from matters. If that source is a hateful war god in a world where Gods, and Clerics, and Magic is real, and you could literal find yourself before your God having a conversation?

Well for my money, your going to have a culture that matches that gods ideals.

My Orcs are not savages in furs. They are brutal, organized, prosperous, and supporting of the people they rule over.

They do rule though, they don't accept challenges to that rule, and they firmly believe in their own superiority.

Now is that evil? It's absolutely a brutal dictatorship, but those who live their have peace, and a better quality of life than the human kingdom neighboring them.

Maybe it's evil, but the Orcs don't think so.
I don’t know how any of this relates to my question.
 

Oofta

Legend
Could humans not fill the role orcs currently fill? Could other, non-human races fill it? Could orcs not fill a role humans don’t, without being limited to one role? I don’t understand why roles need to be so precisely delineated and exclusive for non-human creatures to not be “just humans” in your eyes, and the eyes of seemingly many others. It genuinely doesn’t make sense to me. Even if humans and orcs filled exactly the same roles (which I don’t think they do or should), they still wouldn’t be the same. And the differences between them would still be more than just aesthetic.

Do they need a point, other than that they’re cool?
If that's all you need, go for it. I don't think they're particularly ... anything ... if the majority aren't "traditional" orcs.

But again, there's nothing new here. Feel free to share your ideas on orcs, but I think there are so many monsters that their niche has to be fairly narrow to it to make sense to have even a decent percentage. YMMV
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Yet isn't there also a strong push at the moment towards flattening or even wiping out inherent stat differences between vaguely-similar creatures, as reflected by the downplaying and-or dropping of race-based stat alterations?
You mean eliminating ability score adjustments for PCs of those races. That doesn’t stop them from having different stats (ability scores aren’t the only stats in the game) and it also doesn’t stop their monster manual from having different ability scores.
Given that, @Deset Gled 's question holds water: if Goblins, Elves, Hobbits and Orcs all use the same 3-18 base without bonus or penalty, where does any mechanical distinction come from?
Like I said above. Ability scores aren’t the only ways to mechanically distinguish characters from one another, and their monster stat blocks can have different ability scores.
 


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Because you're essentially turning them into humans with modern day viewpoints.
Except that that's not required, at all. It requires effort, sure, but it's entirely possible to articulate a range of behavior that does fundamentally differ from humanity. In my DW game, I have intentionally made most (playable) races behaviorally equivalent, because I wanted a world like that, but I have also included races that have...very different fundamental understandings of things. The most prominent of these are the Shi, a mostly-lost race (that probably survived somewhere in an inaccessible alternate plane). The Shi can be summarized in terms of behavior and appearance with "they are to elves what elves are to humans": gracile in the extreme, preternaturally beautiful and aesthetic, and very alien. Their values come across as pretty Blue-and-Orange compared to human values; their magic and science were incredibly advanced, but used in bizarre ways; they delighted in creating seemingly redundant things and completely ignored other seemingly-basic avenues of thought.

It is entirely possible, if you wish to include non-human species, to do something similar. To think about what physiological differences would do--e.g. if orcs are primarily carnivorous rather than omnivorous, their population sizes and food sources are going to heavily differ from humans', and this should have ripple-out effects on their behaviors, cultural mores, and even language. Or, as I said in a previous thread, dragonborn canonically mature very quickly and hatch from eggs, so gender stereotypes are likely to be quite different and ideas about childhood, maturity, and reproduction may be very different.

Going with "they're really just humans with a layer of latex" is not the only option, and never has been. Why do you guys keep acting like the ONLY choices are "absolute and unbreakable monoculture," "hegemonic monoculture with explicitly and inherently rare exceptions," or "literally identical to humans in all describable ways except a funny costume"?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
You mean eliminating ability score adjustments for PCs of those races. That doesn’t stop them from having different stats (ability scores aren’t the only stats in the game) and it also doesn’t stop their monster manual from having different ability scores.

Like I said above. Ability scores aren’t the only ways to mechanically distinguish characters from one another, and their monster stat blocks can have different ability scores.

I'm not opposed to floating stats but they've been ham fisted into 5E. It's more if a 6E thing.

Basically the races need to be rewritten to incorporate them.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Why are you leaping from "has diversity" to "is literally identical to a human wearing a funny costume in every possible way"?
Some of the grief Oofta is being given is rooted in the fact that his Orcs' creation story is not influenced by Warcraft or Warhammer; they came from elsewhere, far enough back in the past to be strange and unfamiliar to more modern sensibilities.
 

Because you're essentially turning them into humans with modern day viewpoints.

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Monocultures have pros and cons one pro is how they are different to humans. I don't expect PCs to follow that monoculture.

More races you add the harder making them relevant is going to be.

TV can do it Worf for example was different in a few ways from his mono culture.

Like, what made Worf and Klingons interesting were when they filled in things beyond the monoculture. Like, one of the best movies was Star Trek VI, where you have a leader who wants reconciliation and a general who enjoys cultured things and actively quotes Shakespeare.

It's bland and boring to me, I prefer if something just rewrites stuff like Athasian Halflings or Eberron Orcs/Drow etc.

I mean, I don't understand how any other Orc is more bland or boring than the current one. Like, it's one of the dullest monster races in the book.

If I say Drow for example anyone vaguely familiar with D&D will have a rough idea of the basics.

I mean, that's not a mark of quality, that's just a mark of familiarity. Warhammer has been changing their Orks for years and they're arguably the most identifiable Orks out there, alongside Warcraft.
 

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