D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

Chaosmancer · Apr 12, 2021

Sithlord said:
Maybe everyone in the fictional made up not real race that is an allegory for storytelling chose evil in a fantasy world that is not real because we are using them for allegory and not species like in Star Trek.

You know, we all know they aren't real. We get it. We understand that DnD is a fantasy world we made up that isn't real. We understand that every race in it isn't real. People don't have to repeat it every single thread to remind us that DnD races aren't real.

Because, you see, "it isn't real so it doesn't matter" is a defense that doesn't always work. Sure, if we wanted to ask how the Autobot digestive system works, we can say "it isn't real, so it really doesn't matter than much". But if we are asking "wait, since when can Optimus Prime teleport and clone himself to fight an entire army" saying that the character isn't real so it doesn't matter doesn't work. Because it does matter, you can't get away with just doing whatever you want. And questions of motivation and why villains do what they do can fall into this category pretty easily. This is why the autobots and decepticons history of being a slave race and their fight mostly being over the need for an energy resource, or looking for tools to use in the ongoing civil war matter. Because if they were just fighting each other to fight each other, it wouldn't make a lot of sense, or being a good fictional story.

Chaosmancer · Apr 12, 2021

Mind of tempest said:
assuming it is an organic sapient entity that could be the product of evolution by default we would have a lot in common.

what is it you strictly dislike about it?

That is HIGHLY debatable. Different planets could easily have different evolutionary pressures. After all, mammals only came to prominence because of the destruction of the dinosaurs caused by a meteor strike. Evolution could have possibly made any number of different choices, such as squids having a longer lifespan, leading to more intelligence, leading to them being a dominant species. Or instead of having a symbiotic relationship with bacteria, we could have had one with an aggressive mold.

Now, granted, we could also have a lot in common. It could be that many of our characteristics are more evolutionary likely and that a general bipedal shape is going to be the most common expression of dominant species. But, until we've met a lot of aliens, we just can't be certain

Hussar · Apr 12, 2021

Oofta said:
Yes and no. For some people, some games, it's okay for Nazis to be evil because the Nazi regime was evil. It ignores that soldiers in the Nazi army were there for a whole host of reasons. Same with storm troopers for that matter.

Yet, in a game that revolves around combat whether or not combat is central to any specific campaign there are typically going to be a group of bad people that you don't have to feel too bad about killing. I don't think it's better to make those bad guys the soldiers who happen to be wearing the wrong uniform versus being creatures from the Abyss.

If you want that kind of moral questioning, go for it. For a lot of people, we just want to escape from the messiness of the real world for a while and pretend to be in a world where we know what right and wrong is. Because in the real world? Too often there is no good answer.

See, it's okay for Nazi's to be evil.

How about all white, blond haired humans are automatically evil. Regardless of where or when they grew up? Would that be perfectly fine? You don't see any issues there?

Dude, that giant whooshing sound you keep hearing? That's the sound of the point flying over your head.

AnotherGuy · Apr 12, 2021

Chaosmancer said:
Because, you see, "it isn't real so it doesn't matter" is a defense that doesn't always work. Sure, if we wanted to ask how the Autobot digestive system works, we can say "it isn't real, so it really doesn't matter than much". But if we are asking "wait, since when can Optimus Prime teleport and clone himself to fight an entire army" saying that the character isn't real so it doesn't matter doesn't work.

Good point.

Chaosmancer said:
Because it does matter, you can't get away with just doing whatever you want. And questions of motivation and why villains do what they do can fall into this category pretty easily. This is why the autobots and decepticons history of being a slave race and their fight mostly being over the need for an energy resource, or looking for tools to use in the ongoing civil war matter. Because if they were just fighting each other to fight each other, it wouldn't make a lot of sense, or being a good fictional story.

So your argument is one of (a) logic within the setting AND (b) that of a good story.
I'm not so swayed by (b) - plenty of stories have bad guys and good guys.

With (a) are we saying an evil people cannot functionally exist, right?

Hussar · Apr 12, 2021

Again, people are reading all sorts of things into this issue that isn't there.

Look, it's simple. The reason we have an issue with always evil orcs is because the language used to describe always evil orcs, almost verbatim, has been used to describe and dehumanize many real world peoples. THAT'S the issue. It's not that orcs are always evil. Because, we don't worry about why demons are always evil. Why not? Because the language used to describe demons and devils in fantasy and D&D has never been used to dehumanize real world peoples.

So, yeah, it's problematic when your humanoids are "always evil" because all you're doing is parroting the same colonialist drivel that has been applied to real world people.

Now, having evil humanoids? Not a problem. No one cares if you have a bunch of bad orcs. That's groovy. Go for it.

The issue is when you start making blanket statements about humanoids, which, by the definitions of the game, aren't magically one way or another and only really differ from humans physiologically. If humans can choose good and evil, by that logic, all humanoids should be able to choose.

Mind of tempest · Apr 12, 2021

Chaosmancer said:
That is HIGHLY debatable. Different planets could easily have different evolutionary pressures. After all, mammals only came to prominence because of the destruction of the dinosaurs caused by a meteor strike. Evolution could have possibly made any number of different choices, such as squids having a longer lifespan, leading to more intelligence, leading to them being a dominant species. Or instead of having a symbiotic relationship with bacteria, we could have had one with an aggressive mold.

Now, granted, we could also have a lot in common. It could be that many of our characteristics are more evolutionary likely and that a general bipedal shape is going to be the most common expression of dominant species. But, until we've met a lot of aliens, we just can't be certain

look can I go down to the pub with the sapient land squid or not that is the question?

I never said they would be identical but that we would have a lot in common as even fruit flies have eyes and a mouth.

Oofta · Apr 12, 2021

doctorbadwolf said:
I don’t know, I have only ever seen people say that undead or fiends or aberrations should be less evil in threads about orcs and such, as an attempted counter to arguments about orcs and Drow.

I don’t think we have any evidence that the cycle you describe exists.

The list of creatures that used to be "monsters" and are now playable PC races includes: bugbear, centaur, firbolg, gith, goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, minotaur, orc, yuan-ti. Probably add in dhampir which seems to effectively be a depowered vampire spawn.

Seems like an indication of direction to me.

AnotherGuy · Apr 12, 2021

Kobold Avenger said:
I think the original idea from the 60's of it being an idealized future where not only a Japanese man, a black woman and a Russian can be part of the crew (coming from a time when those things were almost unthinkable), but so can an alien like Spock.

This comment reminds me of the Men Behaving Badly* episode in which the two male protagonists claimed rather passionately for the significance of Star Trek.
When the two female protagonists (their girlfriends) asked in disbelief what such a show had taught them - one of the reasons given by Gary was that Star Trek showed that a crew made up of different nationalities can work together successfully, especially when there are no bl--dy Italians.

I imagine the joke was a call to the competitive European football between England and Italy. Not being Italian, but being a fan of Star Trek and the Azzurri, Gary's comment stuck with me.

*90's UK comedy series

Oofta · Apr 12, 2021

Hussar said:
See, it's okay for Nazi's to be evil.

How about all white, blond haired humans are automatically evil. Regardless of where or when they grew up? Would that be perfectly fine? You don't see any issues there?

Dude, that giant whooshing sound you keep hearing? That's the sound of the point flying over your head.

I clarified my statement in a follow-up post. The uniform a person wears does not necessarily indicate their moral character. Many soldiers have no choice and are drafted/conscripted. The Nazi army conscripted men from ages 16-60 by the end of the war. Boys aged 12 and under were manning artillery units. I don't believe that they were all evil.

So no, I don't think it's "okay" to say all soldiers forced to fight on the side of an evil regime are evil. War may sometimes be necessary but I don't think it is ever good in the real world.

AnotherGuy · Apr 12, 2021

Oofta said:
Boys aged 12 and under were manning artillery units.

At around that age I was learning to play D&D.

D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

Chaosmancer

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