D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Faolyn]

I'm not sure that is entirely supported. Zariel is listed as a fiend, but was created as a celestial. If it is possible for a celestial to fall and become a fiend, it implies it is also possible for a fiend to rise and become a celestial.

Not 5e, but there is also the character Fall-From-Grace in Planescape: Torment, a lawful neutral succubus.

Zariel, IIRC, was corrupted from what was likely thousands of year's worth of evil emanations from her time fighting in Hell (i.e., not a lot of free will involved here), and from what I can tell, Fall-From-Grace suffered thousands of years of torture by devils, which probably had something to do with her change of mind.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Zariel, IIRC, was corrupted from what was likely thousands of year's worth of evil emanations from her time fighting in Hell (i.e., not a lot of free will involved here), and from what I can tell, Fall-From-Grace suffered thousands of years of torture by devils, which probably had something to do with her change of mind.

Whatever the reasons, I would say there is no one, not even fiends, who it is okay to kill just because they is evil.

 

[Faolyn]

Whatever the reasons, I would say there is no one, not even fiends, who it is okay to kill just because they is evil.

If a creature is evil in D&Dland, it's likely actively being evil. Or if not that, it's likely enabling evil in others.

 

[S'mon]

If a creature is evil in D&Dland, it's likely actively being evil. Or if not that, it's likely enabling evil in others.

What if a bunch of evil creatures are sitting around being evil to each other, nowhere near any neutral or good creatures? OK to kill them & take their stuff?

 

[Faolyn]

What if a bunch of evil creatures are sitting around being evil to each other, nowhere near any neutral or good creatures? OK to kill them & take their stuff?

If it's not an OK thing to do to a good or neutral creature, it's not an OK thing to do to an evil person either. Kind of why prison rape jokes aren't cool.

 

[Chaosmancer]

My grandfather was a conscript in the Italian army. He didn't believe in what Mussolini was doing but he didn't have a choice.

I'm sorry he went through that.

However, there is a flip side to that as well. There are true believers to these causes. Even today, there are neo-nazi's and they had full choice in what they are doing. And that is what we are talking about with the uniform situation.

And, personally, I find it far easier to logically parse out "true believer to the cause" and "person with no choice in an impossible situation" than I do with "born evil" races and "sometimes they aren't". It could be said to be a sideways step in representation, but it is one that I find makes the forking paths much much easier to understand and shorthand.

 

[Sithlord]

Maybe everyone in the fictional made up not real race that is an allegory for storytelling chose evil in a fantasy world that is not real because we are using them for allegory and not species like in Star Trek.

 

[Northern Phoenix]

Real orcs:

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There's entire generations of players who have grown up knowing only this. I think abruptly reverting to how thinks were in historical times would be jarring, to put it mildly.

 

[Mind of tempest]

There's entire generations of players who have grown up knowing only this. I think abruptly reverting to how thinks were in historical times would be jarring, to put it mildly.

I am more an orsimer man my self but yeah orc have more or less become people in most settings, we can't really reset that.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Maybe everyone in the fictional made up not real race that is an allegory for storytelling chose evil in a fantasy world that is not real because we are using them for allegory and not species like in Star Trek.

FWIW, even Star Trek tends to introduce new species as a metaphor for some aspect of humanity. "They're like humans, but more [hat]." The interesting species are the ones we see more of - because one of the ways they are like humans is that they're diverse.

I personally use Star Trek as my model for how races/ancestries in rpgs should be treated. They can have a hat, but they should never be a hat.