D&D 5E Unearthed Arcana: Draconic Options

Mind of tempest · Apr 18, 2021

FitzTheRuke said:
I don't think that it's weird that you want to discuss it; that kind of thing is what these boards are for. I do, however, think that you're wrong. Prior to 3.x the books said that they were dog-like, with scaly skin. You may think that scaly-skin can only belong to reptiles, and so have seen them that way (as clearly many people did, including 3e designers as they went that way). But it's clear that a lot of other people put the accent, if you will, on the dog-like, and the goblin-related folklore origins (including many D&D designers up to and including 2e) and they had very little lizard-like qualities.

The books may "say what they say" but they objectively don't say that kobolds were little lizard-folk.

true but slightly weaker goblin is kinda pointless as a concept go dragon or go fae.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Apr 18, 2021

Mind of tempest said:
true but slightly weaker goblin is kinda pointless as a concept go dragon or go fae.

Concepts were less important for the first few generations of the game than having a monster in each hit dice range, since the conceptual leap of leveling monsters like heroes hadn't occurred to anyone yet.

Kobolds > Goblins > Orcs/Hobgoblins > Bugbears > Ogres

If they had started with the idea of being able to level monsters, it's entirely likely we wouldn't have kobolds, hobgoblins and bugbears in their current form, or at all.

We probably wouldn't have quite so many giants, either. We might even just have "giants" who could appear in different terrains and have cultural differences, like humans.

Mind of tempest · Apr 18, 2021

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
Concepts were less important for the first few generations of the game than having a monster in each hit dice range, since the conceptual leap of leveling monsters like heroes hadn't occurred to anyone yet.

Kobolds > Goblins > Orcs/Hobgoblins > Bugbears > Ogres

If they had started with the idea of being able to level monsters, it's entirely likely we wouldn't have kobolds, hobgoblins and bugbears in their current form, or at all.

We probably wouldn't have quite so many giants, either. We might even just have "giants" who could appear in different terrains and have cultural differences, like humans.

the giants still might have ended up like elves in that you get a new type per terrain type.

Disgruntled Hobbit · Apr 18, 2021

Chaosmancer said:
I think the point is that saying that "constructs and undead are immune to this effect" doesn't fit either. After all, undead aren't immune to fear. Golems are, but what about Warforged? And maybe it isn't a fear effect, maybe it is a sub-sonic thrum that draws attention to the enemies weak points.

As I said they could state that creatures immune to being frightened are immune. Or immune to being charmed. Simple and allows iron and clay golems to be unaffected by warforged to be susceptible
You're making this a much harder fix than it needs to be for no good reason

Disgruntled Hobbit · Apr 18, 2021

doctorbadwolf said:
It’s a discussion. I disagree with you. I’m not sure what you’re even objecting to here.

You're not disagreeing. You're explicitly saying I'm wrong
A discussing creates a back and forth conversation. Telling someone they're wrong just attempts to shut down the discussion

Whizbang Dustyboots · Apr 19, 2021

Mind of tempest said:
the giants still might have ended up like elves in that you get a new type per terrain type.

1E had both hill and mountain giants, which was mostly a difference of hit points and damage.

I'm also not sure there's a lot of conceptual space between storm and cloud giants. A storm giant, unless you do the extremely rare underwater version (which I don't think I've ever seen actually used), is basically a cloud giant who's way into Greek mythology, and could be easily modeled as a cloud giant spellcaster.

And fire giants and frost giants have extremely similar cultures and personalities, until very recently, when they now only have very similar personalities, and are differentiated by terrain. Again, those could be probably modeled by a single type of giants.

Parmandur · Apr 19, 2021

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
1E had both hill and mountain giants, which was mostly a difference of hit points and damage.

I'm also not sure there's a lot of conceptual space between storm and cloud giants. A storm giant, unless you do the extremely rare underwater version (which I don't think I've ever seen actually used), is basically a cloud giant who's way into Greek mythology, and could be easily modeled as a cloud giant spellcaster.

And fire giants and frost giants have extremely similar cultures and personalities, until very recently, when they now only have very similar personalities, and are differentiated by terrain. Again, those could be probably modeled by a single type of giants.

Storm King's Thunder, and 5E in general, lean into Storm Giants as Sea Giants. The penultimate module, Hold of the Storm Giants, is under the Sea of Swords, and has stuff like pet Orcas.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 19, 2021

Disgruntled Hobbit said:
You're not disagreeing. You're explicitly saying I'm wrong
A discussing creates a back and forth conversation. Telling someone they're wrong just attempts to shut down the discussion

I’m not doing that, though. I presented explanations for the ability, and pointed out that it isn’t any more abstract than other abilities.

There’s no reason we need to have a longer discussion beyond that, if you disagree.

Chaosmancer · Apr 19, 2021

Disgruntled Hobbit said:
As I said they could state that creatures immune to being frightened are immune. Or immune to being charmed. Simple and allows iron and clay golems to be unaffected by warforged to be susceptible
You're making this a much harder fix than it needs to be for no good reason

But it isn't a fear effect. If it was, they would say "creatures within 10 ft are frightened". And that is important because there aren't only monsters immune to fear and charm, there are monsters who get advantage on saves against that stuff.

And yes, the Kobold ability doesn't require a save, but if it is a fear effect, then it could be used to activate Conquest Paladin abilities. Or maybe if it was a charm effect there is a class (can't remember) who has abilities that only work on enemies charmed by you.

Yes, I get that the question of "well, why does this grant advantage" is coming up for you, but the issue is that if you make it a fear effect or a charm effect, that interacts with other rules that it clearly isn't meant to interact with.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Apr 19, 2021

Parmandur said:
Storm King's Thunder, and 5E in general, lean into Storm Giants as Sea Giants. The penultimate module, Hold of the Storm Giants, is under the Sea of Swords, and has stuff like pet Orcas.

Nice! That predates my conversion to 5E.

I still think that, for the majority of D&D's existence, storm giants could be easily modeled by slapping some cleric or wizard levels on a cloud giant. I did see in Volo's that they've worked hard to give them strong cultural differentiation.

D&D 5E Unearthed Arcana: Draconic Options

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