D&D 5E So Is The Dex Based Fighter Just Strictly Better?

Mannahnin said:

I think that's less the issue than the idea that the bad guys may have gotten in an extra turn that they wouldn't have, if you had beaten them to the punch. This can add up to a drain on party resources/extra damage taken.

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The same thing could happen if you miss an attack or they make a save or they roll well on initiative or the damage roll is low.

Ancalagon said:

oh it's not just "DPR calculations". You're literally doing less. You're playing less than the other player with a high initiative.

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I've never noticed, given that

1. initiative is an opposed roll, so having a bigger mod doesn't reliably mean you go first.
2. the number of rounds varies, so it's really hard to say that the one opposed roll is what made the turn shorter
3. pretty much every other roll in the combat, both yours and everyone else's, is also a factor.

Plus by this logic you don't want too drop enemies because that makes the fight shorter.

If we were to record every combat in a game, and how many rounds each character participated in....over time the ones with higher initaitives would get more rounds, and there total Damage over the campaign would increase over their peers.

However, most games are unlikely to go on long enough before that becomes statistically relevant over the randomness of the die, and even if it did, will most players notice? I doubt many players are recording their total combat rounds across an entire campaign. It all comes down to how useful I am in a given fight.

jmartkdr2 said:

Plus by this logic you don't want too drop enemies because that makes the fight shorter.

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not at all. You want to win as quickly and efficiently as possible. Part of the way of doing that is acting before your foes.

Stalker0 said:

If we were to record every combat in a game, and how many rounds each character participated in....over time the ones with higher initaitives would get more rounds, and there total Damage over the campaign would increase over their peers.

However, most games are unlikely to go on long enough before that becomes statistically relevant over the randomness of the die, and even if it did, will most players notice? I doubt many players are recording their total combat rounds across an entire campaign. It all comes down to how useful I am in a given fight.

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A lot of these mathy comparisons are subject to this effect.

If I decide to take a feat at 4th level instead of increasing my attack stat from 16 to 18, will the lack of that +1 to hit and damage be immediately noticeable all the time? No, probably not. But it does add up over time.

Ancalagon said:

not at all. You want to win as quickly and efficiently as possible. Part of the way of doing that is acting before your foes.

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I'm not saying initiative isn't good, just that it's not game-breakingly-weak to have a +1 initiative mod.

I can assure you, a paladin with an 8 dex, 20 str, 20 cha, 14 con, and 22 AC doesn't feel like they're not able to participate or contribute to the success of the party. They just tend to wait for the enemy to come to them.

Zardnaar said:

As the title says. This is assuming you are not using a two handed weapon and are using a 16 dex at level 1 PC and a rapier or a 16 strength 1d8 one handed weapon as the other. Both fighters are using shields as well.

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this is why I have an arming sword that is a d8 finess and verstile so I can have dex builds use a 'long sword' cause rapier bugs some of my players... but lets crunch some numbers.

Assume a 16 dex 14 con
Assume a 16 str 14 con 13 dex or a 16 str 14 dex 13 con is already an issue.

so I will make 3 fighters... Alan Bob and Cassie Shortened to A B and C
you get heavy armor Chain (AC 16 as you armor or you get light armor leather (11+dex)
You then get either 2 weapons or a weapon and a shield (we are only going melee here)

Alan gets the 16 dex and 14 COn he starts with AC17 and 12hp second wind and a fighting style (defensive) he is fighting with rapier and shield to buckle some swash he hits with a +5 1d8+3, and rolls +3 initiative

Bob gets teh 16 str 14 Con and starts with AC 16 and 12hp second win and a fighting style (great weapon) he is fighting with a two handed sword and hits with a +5 2d6+3 reroll 1's and 2's and rolls initiative at +1

Cassie gets the 16 str 14 dex 13 con and stats with AC 19 and 11 hp second wind and a fighting style (defensive) he fights with a long sword and shield and hits with a +5 to hit and 1d8+3 and rolls initiative at +2


A and C are similar and trading 2AC for 1 hp and 1 initiative
B is a completely different build... it has the lowest AC and initiative, but it does the most damage

average damage
A & C 7.5 per hit
B 12 per hit

I might argue the only class that really feels the power of initiative is the god wizard, Aka a controller. When a controller goes before the enemy, it can completely change the dynamics of a fight. Initiative is always good of course, but it could be argued init is very important to a controller

Uchawi said:

Overall the Dex based fighter is better, except for the few corner cases when strength is useful, and at that point the player/character will get gauntlets of ogre power. Since the gauntlets are one of those iconic magic items that will appear in adventures and most likely in a home campaign.

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I have never seen gauntlets of ogre/giant strength show up in a campaign. One time in a campaign when another player’s 11th level character died the DM let his new character start with them, and that’s the only time I’ve seen them in play.

EDIT: I’ve fallen for the necro thread!

Stalker0 said:

This is an area where the DM has a lot of impact on the actual balance.

If the DM ignores grapple checks and does a lot of combats where switching between ranged and melee weapons is really useful, the dex fighter will feel like a god.

If grappling becomes a key aspect, or carrying capacity comes up once in a while, suddenly the strength fighter will feel better.

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You can defend against grappling with dex/acrobatics, strenght is only needed if the player chooses to initiate a grapple.

IMO the real benefit of being a strenght fighter is that you can make effective use of any magical melee weapon that turns up. In all of the WotC adventure paths I've played, magical finesse and ranged weapons have been in very short supply.

jmartkdr2 said:

8 years - this might be new thread necromancy record for me!

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Did you miss the 20-year necro about the cost of hiring sex workers?