D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

Hussar · Apr 24, 2023

Micah Sweet said:
Its not just the mechanical representation; its how they decided to present it. You can look like whatever you want, but in the game only half (ironically) of your heritage matters.

Two … skills…

That’s the sum total of the difference.

Mechanics do not mean anything inside the game reality. Mechanics do not equal physics engines. All they’ve done is simplify making half races and then open it up wide open so you can be half anything.

And people are freaking out about two skills.

FormerlyHemlock · Apr 24, 2023

[snip]

Hussar · Apr 24, 2023

Maxperson said:
"While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual people with a variety of different cultures across the continent."

That sounds a lot like the Native American Nations. It's terribly hard to come up with a description that can't be applied to some real world people somewhere if you want to find one to apply it to.

But since it’s not phrased as a negative, what’s the problem with it being similar to anyone ? The issue is negative stereotypes.

Minigiant · Apr 24, 2023

Maxperson said:
You completely miss the point. D&D has never been a game where the races are capable of survival based solely on what is written about them. Hell, if you take the adventuring day to heart, all the races are long dead from the sheer hordes of CR 1-30 monsters that roam the world in such large numbers that all adventuring groups from level 1 to 20 encounter 6-8 medium to hard encounters be adventuring day. That applies no matter where these groups go, so there have to be at least several times more of those monsters wandering around the world than there are adventurers to encounter them. Poof, dead world if we apply logic.

The answer is of course not to expect the game to apply it for you, but rather you take the game and modify it to the point where you are comfortable with the level of illogic that is happening.

You're missing my point. D&D has shifted from being completely dungeon based.

So how a humanoid race would set up their own civilizations and settlements is important because in 2023, playersmight travel to their lands. The PCs might travel to the orc lands.

The problem for orcs isn't absence of lore. It is that the lore is given to fans and it's nonsense. It says that they don't settle. It says that their lust forces them to raid. It says the orc drain all the resources in an area then moves on. The default Orcs are written as the Zerg or Tyranids without the biomass to muscle mass engine and hive mind that power them.

Not to mention trying to claim orcs that act like Nids are people.

Fighter: So the orcs burned down 5 villages and you are asking us to get rid of them. Aren't you the messenger of a noble lord? Isn't stopping hordes a government responsibility?

MoonSong · Apr 24, 2023

Hussar said:
Two … skills…

That’s the sum total of the difference.

Mechanics do not mean anything inside the game reality. Mechanics do not equal physics engines. All they’ve done is simplify making half races and then open it up wide open so you can be half anything.

And people are freaking out about two skills.

Sure, two skills...

Would we still get a full entry in the PHB if half-elves become a line on a sidebar? Will half-elf NPCs keep showing in adventures?

Doctor Futurity · Apr 24, 2023

FormerlyHemlock said:
Hmmm. That's generous of you, and a fair point, but I think the reversal goes deeper than just the language level. I think 2023 gamers and GMs are now more inclined to roleplay orcs as pastoralists than industrialists, too. Somewhere along the way, the whole idea of what an orc is seems to have flipped 180 degrees and they are now more like Tolkien's hobbits than Tolkien's orcs in some important respects (not all), in conventional wisdom anyway.

I reserve the right to be weirded out by that fact.

The elephant in this conversation is that no one is addressing other media in the last twenty years which have represented a type of orc that is both desirable as a player character and often portrayed in non-aggressive or pastoralist roles. Specifically; The Elder Scrolls games and even more importantly World of Warcraft.

We can talk about Tolkien's orc influence in D&D all day, but if you don't recognize these two major influences in the last two decades then a significant chunk of the conversation is missing. back in D&D 3.5 days I had players who wanted to play orcs because they were coming from WoW with a particular concept space about the complex, honorable but barbaric species that lives in Azeroth. The very idea of orcs as a complex society that has both "good guys" and "bad guys" is a distinct extension of what WoW did with orcs and other species to factionalize their MMORPG. Likewise, The Elder Scrolls has always let you roll orc, and you can find large swathes of Tamriel in which orcs seem to be incredibly dull and non aggressive.

Sure, Tolkien "made" them but decades of other works have humanized them and made them more complex ideas in fantasy concept space. D&D today is just catering to that.

Doctor Futurity · Apr 24, 2023

Maxperson said:
"While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual people with a variety of different cultures across the continent."

That sounds a lot like the Native American Nations. It's terribly hard to come up with a description that can't be applied to some real world people somewhere if you want to find one to apply it to.

I mean, it also sounds like old world Germanic tribes in Europe, too.

Yaarel · Apr 25, 2023

Maxperson said:
"While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual people with a variety of different cultures across the continent."

That sounds a lot like the Native American Nations. It's terribly hard to come up with a description that can't be applied to some real world people somewhere if you want to find one to apply it to.

Right, but that is the dichotomy.

Either the Orcs are like reallife humans and cannot be inherently Evil, or the Orcs are inherently Evil and cannot be like reallife humans.

The ethical problem comes when demonizing reallife ethnicities, intentionally or unintentionally.

Hussar · Apr 25, 2023

Maxperson said:
That is wrong.

Here's some bigotry from Dwarves.
/snip

Note the difference though. In the writeups you quote, it's written from the perspective of those races. This is how those races feel about others. In the half-races, it's about how other races feel about them. It's a very key difference. How do half-elves feel about dwarves? Dunno. How do dwarves feel about half-elves - they're other and subject to bigotry.

See the difference?

Minigiant · Apr 25, 2023

Doctor Futurity said:
Sure, Tolkien "made" them but decades of other works have humanized them and made them more complex ideas in fantasy concept space. D&D today is just catering to that.

The problem is it isn't really.

2014 5e's orc still ran out the monstrous horde trope. Hence the Half orc in the 2014 PHB to be an orciod who can contained himself or herself.

It wasn't until Wildemount and Eberron offered conversions of their orcs and the international racial issue uproars that WOTC decided to address orcs.

And its promoted solution was to make orcs bland and remove half orcs completely mechanical sense.

It's like the burger joint serving nothing but beef burgers despite patrons calling for a vegan, chicken, and fish burger for year. Then their menu's lack of variety becomes big news andthe company goes an gets the blandest tasteless vegan, chicken, and fish patties it can get and cuts 2 other burgers of the menu for them.

D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

Hussar

Legend

FormerlyHemlock

Hero

Hussar

Legend

Minigiant

Legend

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin

Doctor Futurity

Hero

Doctor Futurity

Hero

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage

Hussar

Legend

Minigiant

Legend

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